Join the leash reactivity mentorship starting March 22nd

Extra Resources: Listen to the 2 part episode with Micaela Young on Lisa’s podcast, Aggression Bytes.

Part 1

Part 2

This episode is all about dogs that bark/lunge/growl at strangers, both on walks and inside the home. Lisa and I discuss:

• The difference between reactivity and aggression
• How to help dogs with stranger directed aggression acclimate to new people
• Why “first impressions” are so important for these cases
• How to tell if the dog is actually comfortable around a guest
• What to teach dogs who are reactive on leash towards people
• And so much more

About Lisa:

Lisa Mullinax is approaching 25 years of experience in canine behavior. A Certified Dog Behavior Consultant, Lisa has lead behavior programs at multiple animal shelters and provides behavior support to private clients. Specializing in aggression, Lisa now brings her insight and expertise to coaching behavior professionals on navigating their complex cases. Her Stranger-Directed Aggression series teaches dog pros how to get success and stay safe in high stakes cases.

https://www.lisamullinax.com
https://www.lisamullinax.com/aggressionbytes

Transcript

Speaker 2: [00:00:00] I am Jessica Wheatcraft, and this is Rethinking Reactivity, A podcast designed to educate, empower, and equip the modern handler of reactive dogs. Whether you have a reactive dog or you help people with their reactive dogs, you’re in the right place.

Jessica: I wanna start off by giving a really heartfelt thank you to all of the listeners of the show. I didn’t know what to expect when I decided to start a podcast, but I knew I wanted to have conversations on leash reactivity that I wasn’t hearing elsewhere. I have been blown away by the response to my podcast, and it means so much to me. Truly.

So thank you for being here, and thank you for caring about reactive dogs. There have been a lot of conversations about dog directed leash [00:01:00] reactivity on this show, and today we’re gonna dive into stranger directed Reactivity to help clarify this for listeners. This is where a dog barks, growls, lunges, or otherwise has a strong reaction to people they don’t know.

And we’re gonna discuss this in the context of the dog being on a leash and out in public, and also when strangers come into the home. I had a very specific person in mind for this topic, and that is Lisa Mullinax. I have been fangirling her work four years, and to be totally honest, I was nervous emailing her out of the blue to ask her to come on naturally.

I was really excited when she said yes, and she gives us a lot of incredible insights in today’s episode. The last thing I wanna say, if you’re a trainer who wants to develop a deeper understanding on how to get more success in your leash reactivity cases, I want to invite you to [00:02:00] join my leash reactivity mentorship that begins March 22nd.

I purposely keep these groups small because it’s really important to me that I give all of my students a personalized experience. So spots are limited. Check the show notes or go to my website, jessicawheatcraft.com to learn more. Okay, let’s dive in.

Well Lisa, thank you so much for coming on the show.

I know I had said earlier before we hit record that I have been a fan of yours for many years and so the fact that we get to have this conversation is truly I think like the highlight of my week. So here we are and I am super excited to dive into the topics that we have today.

Lisa: Well, thank you so much for having me.

Jessica: So you are somebody who has a significant amount of experience with aggression, specifically complex aggression cases, and also stranger [00:03:00] directed aggression. And so for listeners who might not understand what that means, basically it’s a dog who displays aggressive behaviors to a person that they don’t know or is perhaps not a member of the family.

And so how this ties into leash reactivity and why I’m so excited to have this whole conversation with you is because there’s a lot of dogs who are reactive on leash towards people as well. And I haven’t done an episode on that yet, and it is a really common issue. And so I really wanna dive into this topic as a whole.

But I’m wondering if we could start first by unpacking a bit of these terms that I say reactivity. Somebody else might say the word aggression and a lot of the behaviors could look very similar, but we both know that these are labels. We kind of think of these as like a very [00:04:00] broad label that can encompass many different behaviors.

And so I would love to unpack this with you. When you hear reactivity or you hear aggression, how do you separate that? Or do you even separate it in your own practice?

Lisa: I’ve been trying to separate this and the, the problem I found is we really can’t separate them until the dog makes contact. And then we can say, or, or the dog has the opportunity to make contact and then we can say, okay, this is just reactivity, or, oh, this is aggression.

You know, they, they generally have the same motivation behind them, and that’s to increase distance between a perceived threat. You know, the exception being. Any aggression where the intent is to make contact and cause injury. And so it’s silent and there isn’t any warning. But [00:05:00] generally all of that lunging, barking, growling, all of that is a threat response.

And I have a book that is my go-to, which is uh, animal Behavior Desk Reference, and Barrows is the editor of that. And it’s really incredible. It’s so helpful for me when I want to make sure I am using an, an animal behavior term correctly, and it doesn’t have a single entry for reactivity. So reactivity is not an animal behavior term, it is a dog training industry term, which makes sense, right?

It’s, it’s an overreaction or what we think of as an overreaction. On the other hand, aggression had 30 entries just for the word aggression. And so I think these are difficult terms for us to give a, a very clear definition. I’ve tried a few times and then I go back and I [00:06:00] listen to it and go, yeah, but I don’t know if that’s what I would use now.

So I think for me, when I’m looking at reactivity versus aggression, when I know it’s aggression is when the. There has been a bite or there has been a fight doesn’t necessarily mean it caused injury, but when the dog had opportunity to make contact, they did. Reactivity is when that opportunity is there.

They choose not to, you know, the big 80 pound German Shepherd, that’s really fierce while they’re on leash and then leash drops and they stop 10 feet away and keep, you know, circling and barking. So that’s, that’s how I’ve kind of broken them down in terms of the behaviors. I think the difference then when we’re working with these cases is the strategies that we use and our goals for those strategies.

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. I like how you broke it down in the sense of [00:07:00] what the dog does when they come into contact or when they have the opportunity to come into contact, because that is often the one component that, that I also use to separate a lot of this because I think of dogs who on leash will behave a certain way, but then yes, if you drop the leash or if they.

See or have access to the same exact stimulus person or dog, maybe in their backyard or inside their home, then you’re seeing a different response from the dog. So that tells me, Hmm, okay. There’s something about the dog being on a leash attached to it’s human, which we do have to say is relevant here.

But yeah, I think that differentiating thing is what does the dog do when they actually get access to the thing, and then what do they choose to do there?

And I think that is why a lot of these behaviors can be really confusing for people who [00:08:00] have dogs. And it, I, I guess. Honestly, now that I’m thinking of this, this could be confusing both ways because one thing that just popped in my head as I was saying this is, you know, we’ve got dogs that are reactive on leash.

So they go out in the neighborhood and they’re horrendous. But then, you know, you bring ’em inside your home and you have a guest come over and they’re angels, so there’s no problem. And then you have dogs who inside the home are completely unaccepting of new people, maybe have even bitten people, but then you take them out and then they might be angels when they’re away from the home.

And so it can be really confusing for people of why is it that my dog in this scenario seems to be totally fine? And then in another scenario I’m seeing a completely different dog. And so I, I wanna unpack more of the behavior of dogs who are not comfortable with people. And that is why they are reacting on leash because they, they [00:09:00] truly are uncomfortable with people and they want to keep them away from either themselves or maybe themselves and their most important person in their life, which probably happens to be holding the leash.

Lisa: Right.

Jessica: So let me ask you, if you had a client who sent you an email and wanted to schedule a consultation with you, and they said, my dog is reactive to people on leash, what would be some of the. Information gathering procedures or assessment procedures that are going to point you in a direction of whether this is a dog who might just be really overexcited on leash and sounds really terrible, but is just kind of frustrated because they, they actually do like people, they just sound awful when they’re on a lead compared to a dog who sounds awful.

And then if they’re on lead and get access to somebody, they’re gonna lunge and bite too. So I wanna start with that because I think that’d be helpful for people to understand, like, Hmm, how do you find out what’s going on [00:10:00] with your dog?

Lisa: Yeah. And I, I do think that lies in the history. As someone who lives with a dog that is that frustrated greeter, he just turned seven yesterday.

He is a cattle dog coonhound mix, which, uh, colleague called an Appalachian bad idea. And so cattle dogs are known for that. Screechy bark coonhounds. Of course, all of their thoughts and opinions are going to be heard by the entire neighborhood. And when you put those two together, it’s horrific. And, and he is hyper social.

And so when he was younger and would see someone, they didn’t even have to make eye contact with him. He was straining at the end of the leash. He was squealing, he was, you know, dragging his nails across the [00:11:00] pavement. And I had approximately three seconds before he went into this full throated bark at them.

And yeah, a lot of people gave us a lot of space. The problem was space was the last thing you wanted. So then that ratcheted up his frustration. He didn’t want food. Yeah. The first few years were rough, let me tell you. So, so yeah, that is where then getting a better sense of the history. So one of the questions I ask potential clients is, when was the last time your dog met someone and let them into the circle of trust that once they met them and they were okay with them, they were always okay with them.

And that answer tells me a lot because I had one just in the last week or two that the dog has a couple of bites under their belt, but [00:12:00] also successfully met someone just a few weeks ago. And is okay with that person. And that information tells me a lot that it’s not identifying all strangers as a threat, but that it’s potentially the way they’re meeting them or the circumstances that they’re meeting them in.

So that’s one of my first questions I will ask. Another one I will ask is how long it takes the dog to get used to someone or I’ll, I’ll ask the potential client, you know, so how did, how did that introduction go? What did that look like? And if they were able to accomplish that within a few minutes, great.

You know, I think we’re looking at a case with a really good prognosis. On the other hand, I have dogs that I work with that have not been able to successfully meet anyone since they were a year old and they’re now [00:13:00] five.

Jessica: Yeah.

Lisa: And so that’s, that’s telling me we’re probably not just looking at a dog that is a frustrated greeter or is not okay with a certain type of meeting that, that we’ve got a, a bigger issue.

Jessica: Those are some great questions to ask. I ask very similar ones with my clients, and I love how you also use the term circle of trust, because I also do that because also, you know, for us as trainers, when we meet a dog like the one who you mentioned, you know, it’d been five years since they had anybody else in the circle of trust, and with time we become one of those people.

Lisa: Yeah.

Jessica: It’s special for us. Right. It is so special and it’s really special for the, the families too, because sometimes I, I would joke with my clients who have these dogs that [00:14:00] I’m like the only friend they can have over because, so I mean, hey, if you want me to come over for dinner or whatever,

Lisa: yeah,

Jessica: I’m the only one.

You know, we kind of joke about that a little bit, but you know, but it is, it’s very special for these families and it’s also special because then they can see the potential. They’re like, oh, perhaps with the right protocol. And again, it’s not every dog, you know, that can, can be around new people.

But with the right protocol, a lot of these dogs can start to introduce other people into their circle of trust and. I really love how you brought up the aspect of how the dog is introduced to the person. Because in my experience, this has been the number one thing for dogs who have stranger directed aggression is I call it like a first impression, right?

Their first [00:15:00] impression of this person is critical because if it doesn’t go the right way, then it becomes so much harder to change that dog’s perception. Yes.

Lisa: And

Jessica: I want to talk more about that, uh, in terms of what are ways that people could help a dog have a better first impression with a person that they are not familiar with?

Lisa: Well, there’s always variables, right? Depending on the setting, depending on the strategies that I love that you use first impression because I do as well, in fact, I did a webinar called First Impressions on the aggressive dog.com website, uh, that is specifically talking about those strategies. But even though there are.

So many different strategies depending on the environment, depending on the dog, depending on the handler’s skill and [00:16:00] abilities and all of that. I think first and foremost, we have to think about how we can start from a position of neutral, of neutrality, right? When I use the coffee shop analogy, when you walk into a coffee shop, there can be a man sitting in a corner when you go up to the counter and order, and you’re not concerned that there’s a man in the corner because of his behavior, because of his location, because of the setting, everything indicates neutrality, right?

He’s, he’s not a concern. He’s not there for you. He’s, you know, you’ve got your thing to do. He’s got his thing to do. And when we’re developing strategies for introducing these dogs, it’s about how we can achieve that for that dog and for some of these dogs that we work with, I am starting at the [00:17:00] opposite end, you know, easily 50 to 75 yards away of an empty parking lot, and I’m talking to the client on my headset.

I’m coaching them from there and we are starting, and there are dogs that 75 yards away is still not enough for me to be neutral. Right. So we’re finding where is that point of neutrality for this dog so that they’re not perceiving me as a threat because the instant they do, like you said, we are now gonna be working backwards towards neutral instead of forward from neutral to positive.

And so that’s the first piece how we do that. And there are dogs, again, we have to start that far away. And then there are dogs that it really is just changing the order of entry into the room. Mm-hmm. That instead of the dog being in the room and the person entering, we have the person in there first, and then the dog comes in the room.

And I [00:18:00] love those cases ’cause, you know, we look magic, we look magical in those cases. The dog comes in, it’s like, oh, hi friend, welcome to my home. And it really is just because that person who’s usually backlit, uh, when the door opens, is standing there and then encroaches on the dog’s space. And so it can be as simple as that.

And it can be as complex as, let’s go find a parking lot, an empty parking lot, as big as a football field and start there.

Jessica: Yeah, I like how you brought up that point of starting with neutrality because that applies in every scenario that you could, you know, create for a dog. And it depends on the dog.

And so now that I thought about that question that I asked earlier, I’m like, oh, that wasn’t really the best question. In terms of in, because you’re right. It’s like there’s way too many variables here. But I think maybe another way that [00:19:00] I could ask that question, or for us to kind of unpack this a little bit more is for people to think about their dogs and where they do seem to be more comfortable with people, and under which conditions is that?

Is it when people are seated that the dog seems more comfortable versus when people are standing up? Is it when the dog approaches the person versus the person approaching the dog? Is it the environment? Because I’ve worked with a lot of dogs who are pretty uncomfortable with humans by themselves, but a human with a dog.

Well, yes you are. Cool. You can come over.

Lisa: Yes,

Jessica: the park, I might even let you touch me, but if it’s just a human by itself, all bets are off. So there’s a lot of. Things that can change from one [00:20:00] thing to another. And I think that the first place to start is really what you, what you said, where is the dog more neutral towards people.

And I think most people who have a dog who displays, you know, whether we wanna call it reactivity or aggression towards new people on leash, they know there’s some circumstance in which their dog is usually more comfortable with somebody than not, right. For most cases. So I think it comes down to figuring out, well, what is that? And then how can we build from there, you know, in terms of building more rapport with new people and so forth. You know, I thought about this one case that I had where the dog was really reactive on on leash towards people and other dogs, but was really great at the dog park and legitimately so because I had the owner send me videos of the dog at the dog park because sometimes we hear, Hey, my dog does great at this dog park.

And then we see it and we’re like, [00:21:00] oh, actually you know, your dog’s really uncomfortable here, or your dog is, is avoiding other dogs. It’s not actually interested in playing. This dog was indeed really fantastic at the dog park, had really nice social skills but was one of those dogs that you described how.

You know, hadn’t really let anyone in its inner circle, I think ever except for just the, the couple itself. They had no success getting people around the dog without the dog escalating its behavior or had bitten several of their friends and family. And so when I first did my consultation, we actually did my initial meet of the dog in the dog park itself.

I said, just go to the dog park and I’ll just show up there and I’ll just, you know, ignore him. Like I’ll not, you know, I’ll be a normal person. I’m not gonna totally ignore him and stand out as if like who goes to the dog park and just stands there staring at the sky. You know, like you have to behave somewhat like what dogs expect humans to, to behave like in certain contexts.

But that was one of the things that we started [00:22:00] there. And then we eventually moved away, like to where we were just outside of the dog park. But from the dog’s perspective, it was kind of close enough to that environment that even though he then was on lead, he saw me first in the dog park, then we were just literally right outside of it.

But it was enough of a buffer for him to where he wasn’t having this huge change of environment to where he was like, wait a minute, this is really suspicious to me now. Or now this is a different scenario. Even though it, it technically was a different scenario, but it it’s very interesting how. A lot of these dogs will display these behaviors in certain or under certain conditions and then not at other times.

Lisa: I, and I love that strategy that you, you used and I talk a lot when I’m teaching other behavior professionals about stranger directed aggression. One of the phrases I [00:23:00] use is blurring transitions. Ah. So, because some people would say, okay, he’s doing great in the dog park. Okay, now go over there. I’ll put him on leash and let’s see if he does okay with you at a different park.

Or maybe now that he’s met you, the next time we’ll meet at a different place and I’ll have him on leash. And so there’s this huge context change because we’re assuming now the dog is okay with you when it could be that it’s, it’s the context. And so what you did was you blurred the transition enough that he was technically still in the dog park environment, but you blurred the transition by adding the leash just outside.

And so from there. You’d probably be more successful with him on leash and then being around you and, you know, that’s, that’s fantastic. [00:24:00] I, I use an example of a pet sitter. We had to get the dog comfortable with the pet sitter and the dog was okay. We got the point that the dog was great with the pet sitter in the living room.

And then, you know, it was time for us to test things with the pets that are coming in without the owners there. And that’s another one where we had to figure out how to blur those transitions. You don’t just say, okay, he’s been okay with you in the living room this time. Next time just come in and we won’t be here.

You know? Instead we started with, okay, we’re all in the living room, everything’s good. Okay clients, you’re gonna leave, go walk to the end of your street and come back. So now the dog is alone in the house with the pet sitter, but we blurred that transition from something the dog’s comfortable with to something that is unfamiliar.

[00:25:00] And I think that gets missed a lot when we’re, when we’re working on these, these plans

Jessica: I agree. And I think also because the dogs are so sensitive to what the person is doing and. And that’s a little bit of what I wanna talk about because I think there’s a lot of different reasons for this and also lots of different ways that it presents itself.

So, you know, we’ve talked about, okay, dogs are really sensitive in how they first see somebody or get to know this person. And how much the environment impacts that and how much the sequence of things impacts the dog’s behavior. But what also really impacts the dog’s behavior is the behavior of the person and whether or not they look at the dog or talk to the dog or lean over towards the dog, or, uh, you know, go from sitting on the couch to standing up.

Things that I [00:26:00] think most of the general population of people who have dogs, this is where they get so confused because they thought, well, the dog went right up to him, he was fine, you know, went up, sniffed him, he was fine. And then, you know, my friend just wanted to get up and get a glass of water and he just, you know, started lunging and barking at him.

Or if we could give the example of, you know, something with somebody out in the neighborhood with their dog. My neighbor came over and, uh, was just, talking to us and, and, you know, she was fine and it just wasn’t until the neighbor looked at her and then she just exploded. And so it leaves so many people so confused.

And this confused. We are not confused as behavior professionals who do these, right? Because we’ve seen this play out so many times. We know exactly what to look for, and we, it’s, it’s a pattern. We kind of are aware of all these things. But I wanna talk more about that, how, you know, perhaps some social pressure that people are [00:27:00] putting on dogs.

Or these sort of gestures, how they might be perceived by the dog. Of course, we can’t say exactly how the dog’s feeling, but I usually use the term social pressure because I feel like the dog will start to feel, Ooh, now the person, it looks like they’re gonna wanna interact with me. So it’s little, right?

Different if you’re just gonna mind your own business, but if you look like you’re gonna interact with me now, I’m gonna have a problem with this. So, so yeah. How do you, like, do you use the term social pressure? How do you describe that interaction where the dog responds to the person, like looking or interacting with them more or looking like they might want to.

Lisa: So I’ve long taught my clients that fine stands for Fido or Fluffy is not enthusiastic. And if they are seeing a lack of that [00:28:00] typical enthusiasm that their dog shows when they come home or when a favorite auntie or uncle comes over that right there is a sign that the dog is not fine, well they’re fine, they’re not enthusiastic, they’re not showing a happy behavior and they’re not showing reactive or aggressive behavior.

Jessica: Yeah.

Lisa: And so one thing changes and now they are not fine. They are now upset. So when I see that I really talk to my clients about, it’s about the dog has adjusted or even has acclimated to this specific context. If something changes, if I sneeze, if I get up, if I go into the bathroom and I come back out, they are not acclimated to that.

They are not okay with me. They are only right now Okay. With me sitting here and not [00:29:00] doing anything else. Mm-hmm. So. I want them looking for not an absence of reactivity or aggression to indicate that the dog is doing well, but the actual presence of social affiliative or, you know, what most people would call friendly behavior if they’re not seeing friendly behavior, that’s their warning.

That the dog is not ready to either go further or interact or do anything that’s going to upset that delicate balance.

Jessica: Yes. Yes. I love the fine. That’s genius. So I’m gonna have to use that one too. Uh, that’s a good one. That’s a really, really good feel.

Lisa: Great.

Jessica: Yeah. And I like how it really illustrates the change in the dog’s behavior of everybody knows what their dog looks like when their dog is excited to see them.

So if they [00:30:00] don’t see that, then they have an idea of, oh, okay, yeah, my dog does feel differently about this person. Even though, as you said, they’re not responding in another way. Like what we could think of reactivity or aggression, they’re not doing that. But it then also doesn’t mean,

Lisa: and I, I found it became more helpful than me trying to.

Teach them all the, the very specific nuances of body language.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: And yes, I still talk about, okay, you notice their position, their tail position here versus before we, we will talk about those. But as we know, learning is not teaching is not telling someone how to do things. They have to be able to internalize that.

They have to be able to remember it in high stakes situations. And so I found that giving them the bigger picture of the absence of friendly behavior was a lot [00:31:00] easier for them to recognize and process in the moment. And then they could look, because honestly, that’s what I’m reading when I go into a situation is not like, okay, well tail position is about here and ears are here.

And Right. It’s like, this dog is not so showing any social behavior to me, that’s my first big red flag.

Jessica: Yes. Yes. I, yeah, I’m glad that you said that. That is the thing that we do look at Right? If the dog chooses to not really ever come near us, Right. Or Yeah. Those are really interesting things for us to be aware of.

Whereas other people think, oh, the dog is just busy, or they’re ignoring me, or whatever. And then they, they sometimes then prompt the dog to come over even more like to come visit,

Lisa: right.

Jessica: Because, well, they didn’t say hi to me yet. You know, kind of stuff. Whereas we don’t do that. Right. We let the dog choose to come over because we get a lot more information that [00:32:00] way.

Yes. Of whether they, whether they choose to or not. And I also really like the way that you’re helping your clients read their dogs through that measurement or, or that display of behavior. ’cause you’re right, it is easier for them to, to see that than it is to try to figure out all the little tiny nuances of, of their dog’s body language.

That can change very quickly. I think. Especially because a lot of times in these scenarios, you’re also dealing with a social interaction with another person. So the, the human is interacting with another human and they’re probably worried about how their dog is gonna behave and their dog inevitably is picking up on that.

Right. And it can be very difficult when you have a. Is not really particularly social with new people, but maybe in that moment when you’re just standing and talking to your neighbor, your dog’s not barking or lynching, but it doesn’t mean that they want that person to touch them or interact with them.

And it is embarrassing if [00:33:00] somebody is, you know, being nice to your dog and they, you know, try to talk to it and then your dog is like, get away from it, you know? And it’s like, you know, the whole thing is like, oh my God, that’s embarrassing. And I understand, you know, for our clients they’re under a lot of pressure and I think there’s a lot of a lot of scenarios that they’re trying to, uh, navigate all at once.

Like, they’re trying to pay attention to the dog, they’re trying to deal with this interaction with this other person, and it’s a lot to put on somebody.

 I’m kind of curious about that. So, for your clients whose dogs behave this way on leash, you know, ’cause we’ve talked about a lot of this occurring inside the home, but for your clients whose dogs behave this way on leash, what are some of the things that you found helpful?

Jessica: Like what are your initial go-tos in situations like this of what you might have a client, begin

Lisa: with? Uh, so typically, you know, it’s, especially when it’s out and about on [00:34:00] leash, you know, the. The goal for most clients in that situation is not for the person, for the dog to meet people.

Jessica: Yes.

Lisa: Which makes it a whole lot easier.

Right. And, and so there I am focusing a lot on operant skills. What can we have the dog do instead? And not in an obedient sense, but in, in the sense of how many different skills can this dog have that work in this situation that give the dog easy access to reinforcement, easy access to rewards so they don’t get frustrated so that we can help them cope and out and about my two big skills really are I, I wouldn’t call it loose leash walking. There’s plenty of times that I want the dog to just be able to do loose leash walking, [00:35:00] but I rely a lot on an, an old school, old school in the sense that we don’t ask dogs to do this much a formal heel, right? Mm-hmm. I want you in a very specific position at my side.

You are going to get reinforced very generously for this. And I find this is really helpful in a lot of the working breeds. Mm-hmm. Because they like that, they like clarity, they like Right. They like to have that, okay, I go here, I do this, I get my thing. Right. Yeah. And that is really helpful for them.

And I know a lot of people you know, especially these days in the, in the positive community, shy away from those old skills. But I think just because the way we taught them back then is not something we utilized doesn’t mean those aren’t still [00:36:00] useful skills.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: So I, I really use that a lot.

Like especially because if all we need to do is walk past people, then if they see a person that that person becomes the cue, woo, I’m gonna come around and this is my spot and I’m gonna get all the good things and that person’s gonna pass by and I still stay safe. And then the other one, you know, everybody has a different name for it.

I call it engagement, where the dog is able to look at the trigger, look back at me, and they are able, to stay fully engaged with me, be responsive to me or their handler as they pass by. And those are the two things that in that particular situation, I would like the dog to be able to achieve. Now that said, we’re not gonna get there right away, right?

That’s gonna take some time. But starting by teaching those skills and [00:37:00] then implementing our desensitization approach, and that’s all that nuance we’re talking about and blurring those transitions and how can we, you are okay doing this here. Now can we get you okay doing this over here or like this, or sometimes I call it green eggs and ham, right?

Can you do it on a train? Can you do it near a plane? Can you

Jessica: uhhuh?

Lisa: And, and so with something like that, I tend to go very simple.

Jessica: Yeah.

Lisa: You know, a couple of basic skills that we train to a high level of reliability and of course using, using high value reinforcers for that dog.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah, I could not agree more. As you were saying everything, I’m like, well, that’s exactly how I do it.

And I will also do the same thing and my whole thought process on that, especially when [00:38:00] there’s some trains of thoughts or some opinions of, you know, we wanna make it positive for the dog but that the positivity comes through just eating food while the person is present. And I feel and have experienced this myself, that isn’t always what I think the dog finds most positive.

And, and also because there’s some other layers there that you. Add into your training that I do as well. So you mentioned, okay, we’re gonna teach the dog well just do this instead. And I think the vast majority of dogs want to do something with their human. They also want to see that their human is taking some leadership in that scenario because the dog is concerned about another human in the environment.

And I think it also helps the handler of that dog to have something really specific to focus on as it is for the dog to have something very specific to focus on. And the handler by positioning the dog next to them, [00:39:00] can also buffer that dog’s experience with that other person, which I think is hugely important here.

Because it helps the dog feel like, okay, well that person can’t get all that close to me because my human is in between. Right? And when you train it the way that I know that you and I both train, right, we’re you’re training this using positive reinforcement, you’re using really high value rewards, whatever that dog finds really reinforcing, and you’re doing it systematically.

You’re not just one day teaching this in the living room and the next day thinking, cool, here’s a man on the sidewalk. Let’s practice. That’s not how we’re doing this. We’re being very strategic with the application of it. And when you do it in that way. Then technically you are building in a positive association because you have a really awesome behavior that the dog loves to do, that the dog feels really good about.

And then when you pair it with, Hey, here’s a person that comes along and this behavior follows that technically is counterconditioning. And so I, I [00:40:00] find that that approach works so much better for the people and the dogs. And I’m also really glad that you brought up that it works really well for working breeds or working dogs because that is the other thing that really made me shift more of my training to an approach like that because it brings so much clarity and it’s something for the dog to do versus just eat food.

I saw much better results with my training doing that.

Lisa: It is true. And I think that is a really unfortunate misconception that has persisted in the positive training community, is that you can choose either operant or classical counter conditioning procedures. And the fact is they’re not separate.

It’s what we are focusing on in terms of our strategy, but you absolutely can achieve that change of association [00:41:00] with operating. Conditioning with operant strategies through training. And when I am teaching that skill, like I said, it’s not old school. We can get that same behavior by doing all sorts of positive training games.

You know, one of my favorites, and I don’t know who named it this, but it’s called Finding Heel. And it’s a combination of Find It.

Jessica: Okay.

Lisa: And I, I love to do this, especially like on a long line in a great big open area, but it’s essentially tossing a treat away from you. Then while the dog is going towards the treat, you start moving in another direction and they come and they catch up to you in whatever that heel position is, whether it’s right, whether it’s left, whatever you’ve been working on.

When they come into that spot, that’s where they get marked and you toss the next treat and they chase that, and then you go the other way. And they’re [00:42:00] constantly finding that position over and over and over. And I challenge anybody who, says that teaching a heel is not fun for the dog.

Mm-hmm. To try that one. I mean, my dog loves it, and you know, we get to the point now that I’m running away from him as fast as I can, which isn’t very fast these days, but you know, I’m running away from him and he is flying across the space to come into that position, so,

Jessica: which is super fun.

Lisa: Yeah.

Jessica: And that’s a great way of teaching that as well because I think that it’s important to be flexible with the positioning, right? And the left side or the right side. It kind of depends. And so, yeah, I think it’s, it’s nice for the dog to also know how to get there of, I know how to put myself into this position like on their own.

It certainly makes that easier for the dog to succeed. But then it gives you more of that flexibility that you need when you’re out and about, because [00:43:00] sometimes you can’t have the dog only on one side, depending on where something is in the environment. Like you need to have the dog on the other side.

So, yeah, that, that’s a super fun game. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. I’ll say one last game that I’ll throw in in addition to the two that you, uh, presented was just a simple treat scatter that I find to be really helpful if somebody needs to buy themselves a little bit more time. Sure.

Because people get stuck, right? Like somebody comes around the corner and asks, Hey, do you know how to get to here? You know, and it’s like sometimes again, it’s the social interaction that the human has to take care of. They’re not gonna just ignore somebody. I mean, I guess they could ignore, you know, somebody talking to them.

But then it will most likely result in that person getting louder or coming closer because that person might assume, oh, you didn’t hear me, so I’m gonna escalate my behavior, which is gonna be worse for the dog. So doing just some simple treat scatters, especially if you can position them behind you or something where the [00:44:00] dog, you know, is moving opposite.

That’s a really great, buy yourself some time to get yourself out of a scenario or to even put your hand up and say my dog’s not comfortable with people. You know, can you just stay right there however you wanna communicate that to somebody. ’cause they don’t always listen to that either.

Yeah. But. But yes, that’s another one that I found to be really helpful. But as you said, it doesn’t have to be super duper complicated. You just need to have them be really well rehearsed so that way they actually work in real life. That’s the key there is the rehearsal of ’em.

Lisa: And I think, you know, I think that’s a couple of great points that, for one, we have different contexts we’re talking about if we’re talking about passing by someone, being in that heel position is gonna be helpful if you have someone that you need to speak with.

And let’s face it, there are lots of people that do not stop. If you’ve got your hand up and you’re saying, no, please don’t, you know, he’s not friendly. [00:45:00] My default these days is he’s still contagious. That usually makes people stop and think for a second. And I, I teach those clients a call to front.

So they call their dog, take a few steps back and start reinforcing in front. So basically what they’ve done is they’ve turned the dog’s butt towards the person. That often stops people who wanna say hi. But I think the other piece that you mentioned that is huge and that I have my clients do a lot is practice and.

I have them practice by themselves, and then I have them practice with someone if they’re a big family or they have a partner in the home practice with them, then practice with someone who’s in the circle of trust so that both the handler and the dog are very fluent in whatever that skill is [00:46:00] before they encounter a stranger.

Jessica: Yes. Yeah. It’s so important, and it is also important for the dog to tie in that picture of the training, right? Because it is a different picture for the dog if you’re practicing your heel work and there’s no humans around, and then it’s a much different picture for the dog if there’s a human in the environment, and especially if you’re.

Pass the human or they’re walking towards you. Yes. So all of those scenarios are ones that we want to prepare the dog for, by educating them. This is the same thing that we’ve been doing, but now we just have this new thing in the environment. Yeah. That happens to be part of the equation. And that is so much of what I feel like we do as trainers, right?

Is like we go in, we help set up all these scenarios because I think for the average person, they don’t know that they have to train around all these things in order to have the be robust. They just think, oh, did it great in the living room. Now we’re ready. Like they don’t understand that that’s the way that dogs need to [00:47:00] learn and generalize their training it’s not something that really comes easily to them.

Lisa: And I, I feel this is something that is so important both for behavior professionals and people who are hiring behavior professionals to understand is we can create the most beautiful behavior plan on paper. Like it is perfection. And, you know, we can give them the skills to do the training so that the dog is able to do these things, but if we don’t work together through the implementation stage.

Where we are out and we are practicing and we are testing our beautiful on paper behavior plan and inevitably making adjustments then that plan really isn’t worth a whole lot. We need to work through it together so that the client is feeling very comfortable. They feel like they can recreate it.[00:48:00]

And I think unfortunately we’ve kind of gotten into this pattern. I know some people, some behavior professionals have gotten into this pattern of going in, doing the consultation and then giving these beautiful handouts that tell the client what to do and then, you know, they’re trying to implement this on their own.

And all of these variables are coming up and that’s where we run into that problem of well positive training doesn’t work. I tried that. Yeah. My dog isn’t treat motivated. None of that worked for him. Yeah.

Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. It’s not enough to do one session for a behavior issue. It is not enough.

And I agree it needs to be, we need to help our clients to a point of where they can implement it in real life. Because otherwise, what is the point of doing? Any [00:49:00] of this. Not to say that the dog wouldn’t have some improvement with some prevention and management strategies or some other things on board, but what’s the point of trying to do any of the skill building and strategic exposure if you aren’t helping your client actually apply this in a real life scenario?

Because we cannot expect them to somehow think quickly on their feet when something doesn’t go right and they’re in their apartment complex and their neighbor’s walking right towards them and they haven’t been prepared to know what to do in that scenario. We cannot put that on our clients. That is not their job.

That is our job, and we need to take responsibility for that as behavior professionals.

Lisa: I agree. You know, we were, we were talking about going in and when we are the lucky ones that get brought into that dog circle of trust and we feel like rock stars and I don’t know about you.

I’ve gotten many offers for free room and board if [00:50:00] I would just,

and, and that’s great. And however, our clients need a strategy that someone that does not have our skills and experience, can recreate.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: And. I used to go in and yeah, you just toss treats and you do it here, and you do it there and you know, then their Aunt Lucy comes over and Aunt Lucy has arthritis and, uh, is a cat person and, you know, they’re, they’re not a dog trainer.

And so a lot of my strategies now, even though my goal is I want to be in that dog circle of trust because that just makes everything else easier if I can work in close proximity to the dog. But the things that I’m doing in the beginning are not going to be the strategy that we’re gonna use either out and about if they’re talking to a stranger or a, a [00:51:00] neighbor approaches.

Or if their goal is to have someone come in the house, that’s going to look a little bit different and it’s not gonna require that person to know all about rates of reinforcement and delivery of reinforcers and all of that fun stuff that we geek out on, but,

Jessica: right. Yeah, you are right.

Because, you know, that does kind of go back to what we were saying when we are first around a dog that has stranger directed aggression, how we don’t reach out to the dog, like we wait for the dog to come up to us. We’re really aware of what to do when we’re in that scenario. But as you said, aunt Lucy has no clue about any of that, and you can’t expect the client or their guest to somehow.

Okay, so you, you can’t do this and you can’t move and you can’t breathe. You can’t give ’em those instructions, like you said, right? They need another plan for how do we have our dog around this person, who, who is not the trainer? Because they are not, they’re not professionals.

So I’m glad that you [00:52:00] brought that up ’cause you are right. That is also another really important component of this. Which is, is why when I would do these types of cases, I would be there and then I would make a point to bring in somebody else that was not me. So I could walk them through the steps of, okay, this is gonna be a different person, so in this scenario we’re gonna see this and we’re gonna do this.

And then it helps them be able to, as you said, feel confident to do it on their own when we’re not there. Because I think that is the goal. But also I think the hallmark of a really good behavior consultant is can your client do this long term, long after you’re gone? If they can, you’ve done a really good job.

If your client doesn’t know how to do this, then I don’t think you quite did your job. And that’s important because we aren’t going to be around forever. We can’t have our clients [00:53:00] rely on us forever. They have to learn how to eventually be able to do these things on their own. So I think that’s why it’s important that we walk them through all those different scenarios.

Lisa: And I think this is one of those pieces where dog directed reactivity and stranger directed reactivity and aggression are different, is because we are now dealing with a, a third learner, right? We have our client is the learner, the dog is the learner, and now we have this third person that, you know, I don’t know if you’ve tried to control human behavior, but I have not been very successful at it.

And so we really have to come up with these foolproof strategies. It’s almost sometimes like coming up with a strategy for dog directed aggression when the other dog is off leash. It’s like, okay, well now we’re in chaos, right? It’s a completely different [00:54:00] scenario. So when we’re looking at these strategies, we kind of have to plan for the unpredictability of human behavior sometimes.

One time I was, as many years ago. I was petit for a colleague who had this lovely little Papillon that I just adored. But he was not a fan of strangers. And my mom had to come by and drop something off. And so I said, okay, when you come over, just ignore him. And she said, okay. She comes over and he is, you know, Papillon barking at her.

And this was my mom’s version of, ignore, you are so cute, but I’m ignoring you. I’m ignoring you. And she continues to make direct eye contact with him. And I went, okay, dummy. That was a really bad instruction you gave her. You didn’t tell her what ignore looked like to her. She obviously interpreted that as, you’re not gonna pet [00:55:00] him, you’re not gonna reach for him.

Right. So the unpredictability of human behavior and I guess the, the trick of clearly communicating and how people interpret maybe subjective language that we might be used to using and, and making sure we’re very clear on that point.

Jessica: Yeah, that third learner, you are so right about that. It is a really important component to these cases.

Yet then you have the third person, you know, that’s also there that, that we have to manage and and set up for success as well. So you are right, it is why these cases can be tricky. Uh, yeah, there’s a lot of variables at play.

Lisa: Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. So I, I want to bring up the certain breed groups that [00:56:00] naturally are going to be more territorial or naturally are going to be more protective over their humans.

Because I know we all get some cases where our clients will say, well, I think my dog’s protecting me on leash, you know, and I’ll hear that. And sometimes I think, well, maybe more times than not, it, it might not be the case. But sometimes it, could be where the dog does feel like, well, this is a really important person to me and I I don’t want, you know, other people around us or other dogs around us.

And so I’m curious from this perspective of, you know, how much stranger directed aggression. Is genetics, versus early socialization. ’cause we know it’s always both. But in my experience, when I see these types of cases, I do tend to see that for certain breeds.

Right. Well, German Shepherds are a great great one because they [00:57:00] are specifically when I think of dogs that are reactive on leash, like Oh yeah.

Lisa: Right.

Jessica: Definitely they do tend to be the ones that are reactive on leash towards dogs and people. Definitely. But then also I think some of the cases where it’s has also been more challenging have just been dogs who didn’t really have a lot of experiences with a lot of new people at a time in their life when they really needed it.

And so it’s usually kind of a combination of both. But what’s your experience been with these types of cases that you deal with?

Lisa: Over the years, I’ve really come, like socialization is important absolutely. But if there is a genetic predisposition there, socialization maybe can minimize or reduce the, the number of things that are triggers.

But I, I learned this was, oh gosh, already 12, 12 to [00:58:00] 15 years ago. Back when I was still teaching puppy classes, I had two different classes right around the same time, and each class had a pair of litter mates that were adopted by different families, but brought them to the puppy class.

Jessica: Okay.

Lisa: So they were getting the same socialization information as the other puppies.

They were in different homes, so with different people. And so of course there were differences. But I remember like at one point, I ran into one of the couples out with their dog when he was about six months old. He was chilling out, laying next to their table at a coffee shop.

Like, you know, they were, they had their treats, they were doing everything right. And for both of those pairs of litter mates right around the same ages, you know, that, [00:59:00] that tricky age, somewhere around nine months old, all four of those puppies developed either fear of or aggression towards strangers.

Jessica: Hmm.

Lisa: In one of the pairs, one of the dogs would escalate, would close distance and bite the other one would run and hide. So that was really interesting. And in the other pair, both would close distance and bite. And that’s when I went, okay, socialization is important, but genetics plays a huge role.

At the very least. I think genetics plays a big role in determining how the behavior will manifest when the dog perceives a threat.

Jessica: Yeah.

Lisa: And so we, we have those dogs that are just gonna bark and bark and bark and bark. And then if the learning history in there has not told them that barking is not effective, then they might [01:00:00] escalate to biting.

But then, you know, living with a cattle dog mix, their default is, if I don’t know what to do, I’m gonna bite it first and then figure it out. You know,

Jessica: or we ask questions later.

Lisa: So I, I do think that matters and, and we aren’t always gonna know. Mm-hmm.

Jessica: True, true. I’m so glad that you brought that up because. Yeah, I would agree. Like I think socialization and exposure matters and for some dogs where maybe they just didn’t have a lot of exposure, but then when we give them a little bit more of the right exposure, you see that they acclimate to a new person very quickly and they’re kind of like, oh, okay.

I guess it’s just not that big of a deal. I just, I just didn’t have the experience. Right. Or like, they just weren’t sure. So it’s kind of what we might describe as just a very, low level the behaviors aren’t really intense. You know, the dog is able to move past it fairly easily. And then you have other dogs, like you said [01:01:00] that, it tends to come out later, which is also why this becomes a surprise for people that the nine months that’s so common. I’ve seen the same thing with these cases where it appears that the dog is okay with people, but then as it hits that nine month mark, then they start to see a difference in the behavior.

So then the people are baffled by it and they’re also troubled by it. Because I don’t know anybody who wants to have a dog who is not accepting of, of new people, unless you’re looking specifically for a guard dog. But most people aren’t looking for that. They’re looking for a companion. And so so yeah, I do think that a lot of this is genetic.

And I think the other thing that I’ll throw in there is having been that we both lived and trained in California for a long time. I’m not sure if you dealt with a lot of the street dogs that were coming up from Mexico, but I would say that’s another demographic of dogs. And I’m using the term demographic because it’s not just one breed, right?

It’s a mix mash of like [01:02:00] many different, you know, genetic wise. As that demographic they’re living among people, but not necessarily inside people’s homes as a full-time pet. And so then when you take a dog. From that environment and you pluck it into your typical suburban neighborhood.

I tend to see a lot of stranger directed aggression with those types of dogs as well. They’ve evolved to be around people, but I think they’ve also certainly have evolved to be really aware of their space because that’s what they’re doing with all the other street dogs that are on the block of who’s coming near my resource, who’s coming near this, what does this mean?

You know, they’re hyper aware of their property, their territories, and so forth. So naturally that’s gonna also show up in your typical suburban neighborhood.

Lisa: And I think that when we bring them back to our way of living, where we have very strictly defined find boundaries.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: You [01:03:00] know that’s, it’s unnatural for them.

And so it’s probably that confinement, like being inside a house is probably a, a lot more difficult for them.

Jessica: Yes,

Lisa: for sure.

Jessica: Yes.

Lisa: You know and you mentioned like. When people ask, is the dog being protective of me? Are they being territorial? You know, that’s something that comes up a lot with all of these cases.

And I finally kind of just come to the conclusion that only the dog knows and Right. And, you know, maybe he is protecting you. Maybe he’s protecting you ’cause he thinks that nobody else knows where his food is. Maybe, you know, only the dog knows really what that comes down to. And I try to focus on the, the scenarios where it happens.

What are the triggers, what’s the environment? What are the pieces we can change? Because some of these cases, like you mentioned earlier, I work [01:04:00] with a lot of very complex cases. Mm-hmm. You know, I love the ones where it’s really straightforward. Oh, you reach for the food bowl and the dog growled that you fantastic.

You know, I can, I, I love to work on a case like that. That one’s so easy. But the ones I’m working with are not straightforward. And I can get, just like everyone else can get caught up in trying to analyze what’s going on. What is it, is it territorial? Is it this, is it that, you know, all of these pieces, what happened in the dog’s past?

And I always have to remind myself, it doesn’t matter, what can I affect right now? I can’t affect whether or not the dog is thinking that they’re protecting their territory or their person. I can affect the, like you said, the antecedent arrangements. I can affect the skills that the dog has to help them cope with these situations.

And I think sometimes, you know, as behavior nerds, we can definitely get caught up in that. And so that’s my question. I’m [01:05:00] always bringing myself back to what can I affect?

Jessica: Very true. Yeah. And in some ways it’s nice to help the owners understand a little bit more of what could be going on, you know, in terms of like, yeah, well your dog is.

Is from this breed group or came from here. And so they’ll be more likely, you know, to displace right. Some behaviors like this. So it’s helpful from that perspective of having a better understanding or helping them maybe like empathize a little bit more. Okay.

Yeah, I understand, where the dog’s coming from with this. But it’s not gonna change, you know, it’s not that there’s a specific German Shepherd heel that we teach. You know, same, it’s the same heel, but we’re gonna probably teach it the same way all things considered. So yeah, the, the outcome in terms of like what our goals are and everything are still pretty much gonna be the same.

Lisa: Sure. And for sure, like when I got my dog’s [01:06:00] DNA test back and saw that he was coonhound when I was pretty certain it was gonna be coyote, you know, when I saw the Coonhound and I went, oh, okay. Yeah. Now I know why he’s doing this. You know, why when he’s frustrated it’s barking. Why, when he’s excited it’s barking.

Why when he’s, you know, it is just, that’s, that’s how Coonhound handle their feelings.

Jessica: Exactly. Yeah. So is there anything about. Dogs that are displaying stranger directed aggression on leash or inside their homes that you think is important that we haven’t touched on yet?

Lisa: Health? Ooh. I think pain and discomfort are, I think we are just scratching the surface of what we understand about pain and how we find pain and, and how we are, I mean, shoot, look how difficult it is for [01:07:00] humans with chronic pain.

And thankfully more and more veterinarians are getting on board with doing pain trials, but I still have so many clients that come back from the vet and say, well, the vet said we ruled out pain.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: And, you know, that’s one of my big pet peeves is if I go to the doctor, they’re not gonna be able to find my migraine.

There are no blood tests, there are no x-rays. Like we cannot rule out pain. We can rule out certain types with diagnostics. I had a client that I talked to just this week, and it was really interesting because there’s something about the behavior patterns that aren’t making sense and which is usually one of my first signs, right.

It’s not the person reaches towards the bowl and the dog growls. It’s. Sometimes it’s when that happens, sometimes it’s with something else. Sometimes he has a good day, sometimes he has a bad day. And those are all my, my flashing lights are going off saying, you know, there’s [01:08:00] something going on. And so in this case, they did a pain trial and they didn’t see a huge improvement.

And then took the dog in and discovered that he needed, his anal glands expressed they were impacted. And as soon as that was done, they saw an improvement in behavior in, you know, an improvement in tolerance. And it’s like we need to be as behavior professionals, I think, you know, we can’t diagnose and we shouldn’t be trying, but we should at least be aware of all the different ways that dogs can experience discomfort that we may not be as aware of.

Unless the client says, oh my gosh, this dog is constantly licking his butt, or he is constantly scooting. Then we’re gonna go, ding, ding, ding. Right. I find myself now asking so many more questions about poop than I ever thought. [01:09:00] This is not what I went into dog training for. But, you know these dogs that never have a solid poop or they have massive blowouts of diarrhea like once a month.

Mm-hmm. Like, that is not a healthy GI system. And I know when something doesn’t sit well with me, how painful that is. Even if I end up being okay in the end, end, you know, you have those moments where like, Ooh, is this gonna be bad because it’s discomfort, it’s pain, and dogs don’t have the ability to work that out.

And so I think we’re just really starting to scratch the surface of what we need to look for, what we need to talk to the vets about and how we can help dogs. Because first obviously we wanna give them relief from the pain, but also [01:10:00] that if they’re having good days and bad days, those bad days are contributing to their learning history.

Jessica: Yeah.

Lisa: And so they’re becoming more complex, and I’m feeling just as much like a, yeah. A case manager as a behavior consultant these days, trying to work out all the nuances. Like the other day it just hit me ask a client if their dog had been tested for Lyme disease because, you know, they sent a video of the dog running in a field and I went, oh, why didn’t I even ask about that?

’cause they have this hind end lameness that comes and goes.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: So I, I think this is something in all of our behavior cases that we are just starting to learn about. And I’m, I’m learning all of the questions I need to ask to really get to the bottom of some of these cases.

Jessica: Oh, I’m [01:11:00] so glad that you brought this up and I will put the podcast episodes that you did on your podcast with Dr. Micha Young because those were fantastic. And I wanna make sure that other people know where to find those so they can go listen, because you two did an amazing job of breaking down, you know, what options do we have available to us right now?

You know, the whole concept of pain trials, different kinds of pain trials all of the different nuances that we need to be looking at as professionals. And you are right, this is something we’re in the industry, we’re starting to become more aware of how prevalent this is in dogs. And, you know, the veterinary community is also catching up along with us.

And there’s a lot of things that are coming out now in terms of different ways that we can be addressing this. And I also really love how you pointed out that if you went to the doctor, that they can’t see your migraines.[01:12:00]

Because. It really does highlight that there are certain things, even if you are doing diagnostics, that you won’t be able to see them. And one of the things that struck me when you said that is that I had a really serious concussion in 2019. And it changed my whole life. And I lived with post-concussion syndrome for many years afterwards.

In fact, I still to this day will deal with symptoms. But the first year was so bad and I went back to the neurologist, they did more MRIs because my symptoms were so bad, but they never found anything. And so it was so frustrating for me because I was having symptoms that were affecting everything about my life and how I felt, how I functioned.

I was in so much pain and discomfort. And yet, if you were to look at my labs and look at the imaging of my brain, they were like, oh, there’s nothing remarkable. And I remember just feeling so lost. [01:13:00] And I remember just having to take my recovery into my own hands. ’cause I thought, well, you’re not gonna tell me anything, right?

I gotta figure how, how to do this on my own. But I think that’s just a great example that not all things can be seen or diagnosed appropriately. And then especially when we have dogs who cannot talk to us, right? Like they, I’m there, we’re humans, we’re talking to the doctor and we’re telling them this is how we’re feeling.

But dogs don’t have that ability, so they need us to give them even more care and consideration with the potential that they might just not be feeling well, you know, when certain things happen.

And there could be many reasons for a dog behaving that way. So thank you for bringing that up. I think that’s a fantastic point to end on.

Lisa: Great, great.

Jessica: Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. This was amazing. I loved this conversation and thrilled that we were able to have it.

Thrilled that you are [01:14:00] such a great resource for both pet parents and also behavior professionals wanting to learn how to take these cases and yeah, you’re doing such good work. So I’m just glad that you’re in the world.

Lisa: Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, I enjoyed this too. I’m sure we could go on a whole lot longer.

Jessica: We could. We could, but we’ll, we’ll end it there.

Speaker 3: Hey listeners, if you found this podcast helpful, there are a few different ways you can support the show. First, you can subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you’re feeling extra awesome, you can also rate and review the show to make it easier for other people to find it. Thanks for being here, and I’ll see you next time.