Free living dogs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-ranging_dog

Stray, a documentary about free living dogs in Turkey: https://youtu.be/rhvQYLtT7Mk?si=A6m2WX29a5LJGOlZ

You might be wondering – what do free living dogs have to do with leash reactivity?

Before the current life we have with pet dogs in Western countries, dogs were free living. And in many countries around the world including India, Turkey, and Mexico, you will still find tens of millions of free living dogs whose lives are drastically different than those of pet dogs in the U.S.

What does it mean for a dog to have a good life? Is it the autonomy to move about as they please? Or is it a roof over their head, a soft bed, and taken everywhere on leash, at the direction of a human?

In order for us to help reactive dogs, we need to understand who dogs are without all of the artificial constructs we have placed on them, including leashes and fences. What is it about barriers and humans that have such a dramatic influence on a dog’s behavior? What can we learn about free living dogs that will help us better support our pet dogs?

Tell me what you think about this episode by emailing me at podcast@jessicawheatcraft.com

About Kapil:

Kapil Patwardhan works to serve free-living dogs in India. He plays many roles – as volunteer providing medical aid and food for dogs in Pune. As an educator, helping the community coexist with dogs by understanding body language and reducing conflict. As an author, he has written two children’s books, using story telling to aid children learn empathy and rest words street animals. As an independent researcher, he works on different research projects focussing on understanding the dog side of the human-dog relationship by collecting ethnographic data on free living dogs. While dogs take up most of his 24 hours, he finds time to step away from the dog world by performing stand up comedy and playing professional darts.

Tours: https://getfloof.com/collections/2027-dog-study-and-immersive-experience-tours

Free ebook of the kid’s book – https://ibh-hundeschulen.org/tipps/neu-der-hund-der-zur-schule-geht/

For courses on helping reactive dogs for both pet parents and dog professionals go to www.jessicawheatcraft.com

Subscribe to my mailing list to be the first to know about learning opportunities for reactive dogs

Transcript

] I’m Jessica Wheatcraft, and this is Rethinking Reactivity, a podcast designed to educate, empower, and equip the modern handler of reactive dogs. Whether you have a reactive dog or you help people with their reactive dogs, you’re in the right place.

I was so moved by my conversation with Kapil that I sat in silence for quite some time after the recording ended. I was contemplating so many things. And later, I wanted to call my mom to talk it all out. But my mom was confused. What did I mean when I was using the term free living dogs? So clearly, I had some explaining to do.

Free living dogs are also called village dogs or street dogs, and these are dogs who live among people, but they’re not owned by people. They’re also not stray dogs. [00:01:00] These dogs have existed for hundreds of years. They are genetically different from pet dogs because they have existed through natural selection, not the artificial selection of the pet dogs that we see in the US and a lot of other Western cultures.

These dogs have the freedom to move about their communities as they see fit. They are not restrained by leashes or fences. You can find free living dogs in many countries around the world, such as Turkey, India, and Mexico. Kapil Patwardhan is an advocate for free living dogs in India, and he works with a number of programs in his community to help both people and dogs coexist safely with one another.

He also hosts some pretty amazing tours with dog professionals who want to observe the lives of free living dogs in his community. You might be wondering, what do free living dogs have to do with [00:02:00] leash reactivity? Well, I think that in order for us to help reactive dogs, we need to better understand who dogs are without all of the artificial constructs we have placed on them, including leashes and fences and keeping them in our homes.

What is it about barriers and humans that have such a dramatic influence on a dog’s behavior?

I found my conversation with Kapil so fascinating that we started the podcast diving into the free living dogs in the Himalayan Mountains, and I just let it unfold from there. We didn’t even bother with a formal introduction. I would love to know what you thought of this episode. Send me an email at podcast@jessicawheatcraft.com.

Let’s dive in.

Kapil: and then this year I did one tour in the north of India near the Himalayas. it’s called Dharamshala. That’s where [00:03:00] the Dalai Lama stays, and also the exiled Tibetan government.

So the Tibetans have been chased off by the Chinese,

Jessica: Yeah …

Kapil: and they have formed their own government, over there. So it’s qui- very interesting because it’s a mix of Indians, Tibetans, Nepalese, ’cause they are the ones who usually take people to the hikes in the Himalayas, the Sherpas. Yeah. So it’s, it’s quite fascinating.

Plus, the mountain dogs are, like, so different to the regular free living dogs, that it’s been just- Just a lovely time, over there. So then I was like, “Okay, we need to do this again.” so then there’s three tours that, will happen next year.

Jessica: That is incredible.

Kapil: Yeah. Wow.

Jessica: Incredible.

Mm-hmm. I love that you’re doing that and that you’re sharing it with everyone, and it is such a great opportunity to observe and see everything.

Kapil: When, when, when would you like to visit Tibet?

Jessica: The mountain one- [00:04:00] Yeah … sounds interesting. Yeah. Going up in the north and seeing the mountain dogs.

Yeah, I love mountains. Yeah. I love hiking, that kind of stuff. That’s really, really

Kapil: neat. So we did a, we, we did a trek as well, but we didn’t go that high. We only went up to 2,900 meters-

Jessica: Mm-hmm …

Kapil: which is like, I don’t, I guess about 10,000 feet maybe.

. and then there’s, but there’s dogs who live on top, which is incredible. Really? S- yeah, so many dogs just living on the top of the mountain.

Jessica: And how did they get there?

Kapil: They go u- up and down quite a bit.

Jessica: Okay.

Kapil: but a lot of them choose to stay up top. a lot of them, we found out, have, they have, like, much bigger, l- much larger, areas to wander as compared to- Okay … dogs who live below.

and they seem to have, like, more of an access into each other territories as well.

Okay. There was an acceptance that other dogs would also move around, and there was not much [00:05:00] of, growling, barking, chasing off, like leave my space, or because everybody had such a big space kind of a thing.

so it was interesting in many ways.

Jessica: That is really interesting. I think that makes sense, right?

If they have so much more space, then-

Kapil: Yeah …

Jessica: there’s less of a reason to resort to guarding. Yeah. And It also sounds like they feel like they have adequate access to resources up there, because if they didn’t, then maybe they would feel more intense about some other dog that’s coming over into their territory.

But it sounds like they have more access to resources. Mm-hmm. And I’m curious, if they’re up in the mountain, is, I’m assuming there’s people and maybe a smaller community up there as well? Or what’s their environment like- where they’re getting food?

Kapil: it’s usually just hikers who are going up.

Okay. But when it’s winter and it’s cold and the dogs… I’ve, I was told that the dogs come down as well. Mm-hmm. and maybe settle themselves out [00:06:00] of, home stays and hotels and stuff like that. there’s also dogs who belong to the home stays. Mm. so they get food there, they sleep in the home of the owner of the home stay.

But during the day they’re all let out. Yeah. And then they, they go around, they wander. they get into fights, but there’s also an acceptance that this is what dogs do. Yeah. So for a lot of us there was like, okay, what is the best of both worlds? You know, what, what does a good life for a dog look like?

And we’re like, okay, this seems pretty good, where they have very strong human connections, they have strong connections with each other as well. But at the same time they also get to explore. three came with us on the hike, but only about like a quarter of a distance, and then they decided to go back.

so- Mm … they know this place so well. Like, it seems like, oh, this is such a huge place, to be knowing the different streets and where the hikes start from, and [00:07:00] just navigating different environments. But they all seem to be doing it with so much clarity. It’s quite incredible how much knowledge they have of their own space.

Jessica: Wow. Well, I feel like we’re already getting into a very-

Kapil: Yes …

Jessica: interesting conversation here. And I feel like we should just continue to stick with this and just keep on, keep on going. Would you be able to,

Kapil: like, edit it out, though? Like-

Jessica: Oh, yeah …

Kapil: edit it in the… Mm-hmm. Okay.

Jessica: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Kapil: Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, like, I like it when things just come up naturally. That is really fascinating because I think when I think of your work and what I’ve seen, I’m thinking of the street dogs in the cities. Mm-hmm. And you’re describing dogs that are y- what you’re describing as mountain dogs that are outside of the city, obviously in a, in a different region, and I’m actually curious from the differences in what the dogs look like.

Jessica: Is there a difference [00:08:00] between physic- like physical characteristics of the street dogs versus the mountain dogs? I’m curious- what is it that they actually look like.

Kapil: so they’re not as big as mastiffs, if that’s what you’re imagining them to be.

Yeah … probably larger and with a heavier coat is what I was- Yeah, yeah … imagining in my head. A,

a, a much heavier coat, for sure. and if you go further north, there’s dogs who are also, like, super thick, But they, I think, I mean, I, I never got a chance to weigh one of them, but I think it l- they look to be around maybe between 35 to 40 kilos.

I don’t know how much that is in pounds.

and I feel that plays a big role in how they have adjusted into their space, because I think they’re so much bigger and, I would not say intimidating, but they, they have a presence.

Yeah. So regular street dogs, people can just ignore them, move past them, and they wouldn’t even, care. Or there’s sometimes they would [00:09:00] walk straight past a dog who’s sleeping and not give the dog any space. But I think people are just more mindful of the mountain dogs because of their size.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Kapil: And they automatically command a respect which your regular street dog may not, do just because how big they are.

And I think because of that, people are giving them more space, giving them more respect, not, not trying to get them. Even if somebody likes dogs or is, somewhat understanding of dogs, you may get into scratching a face of a regular street dog and just not be scared or… But if you are going into the head of a giant dog, maybe you’re also thinking, “Should I be doing that?

Should I not be doing that?” And mostly they end up not doing that. So I think the interactions are much more polite, and interactions are always when the dog wants to interact. Not always, but I would say most of the time. and I think because of that, they are more relaxed in the space. They are, happy with the chaos going [00:10:00] around.

But at the same time, when they do move, they do move with intent. So they, they know exactly what’s happening at what time of the day. they know where to, where to go, like, for food, where to go for water, where to go to run around. And I would say in terms of differences with street dogs, they, they’ll just look more assured-

Jessica: Mm-hmm

Kapil: They have no threat of traffic at all. So it’s like a big threat which is just not there. so, so that’s just because not having that stress- stressor in their life, I think they’re just much more relaxed as well.

Whereas dogs who are slightly lower, they have a huge threat of life because of how fast, the cars go. And it’s, it was so scary for all of us because the roads are narrow, because in the mountains it’s not really possible to have wide roads. But at the same time, the, the taxis are just, like, going so fast that it, [00:11:00] it feels like why…

It, it felt like a rollercoaster every single time we got into a taxi. And, and then we get to hear about how dogs try to navigate it. There’s so many incidents of unfortunately dogs being run over, and that then becomes a learned thing as well that cars are dangerous, then lots of chasing behind the cars as well.

so yeah, if only people just slowed down, but unfortunately that’s not a thing that is… I think people just want everything fast and now, right?

Jessica: Yes, I

Kapil: would say so too So yeah, that’s

Jessica: a,

Kapil: similarity with street dogs. I think in urban spaces we do see a lot of, street dogs also facing similar issues.

There’s also interesting thing about the mountains is, this was shared by a friend of mine who is doing research of this community in the north. they are basically shepherds. and they… It’s called the Gaddi community, G-A-D-D-I. And they have their Gaddi dogs as well, who are similar [00:12:00] looking to a mastiff, so they’re quite big.

Much bigger than your mountain dog. And usually the dogs are, working, making sure the, the goats and the sheep are safe from snow leopards and other predators. but interestingly, because of their size, there is a demand for them to be kept as pet dogs in urban cities. So it’s already c- a complete mismatch of environment, but that demand exists.

So what used to happen is that the Gaddi community would barter puppies amongst each other before, but now they were m- they are selling the puppies to, just regular citizens to keep as pet dogs because they’re getting a lot of money for them. But they also need some dogs to be doing some of the herding, with them.

So, they have employed regular Indian dogs, and their biggest complaint is that the dogs are [00:13:00] just sleeping most of the time. Next to them. So now they’re like, “Oh, shit. We should not have given our dogs away.”

so the mountain dogs at least, I mean, if the ones who are still there in that region are, I would say, thriving. But there are still unfortunately many mountain dogs who are being brought back to cities and, suffering in many ways.

Jessica: Mm-hmm. I’m wondering if we could go back a bit.

So if a listener is hearing this and they perhaps don’t even know what a street dog is, and I have listeners in all different countries, but I think most of my listeners are here in the US. Mm-hmm. And in the US we don’t really have street dogs or what people think of as street dogs. They would assume- Yeah

that if they saw a dog wandering a city that this is a stray dog. Mm-hmm. And I’m wondering if we could [00:14:00] start first just sharing about who street dogs are. Like, where did they come from, and also their really unique history in India.

Kapil: Mm-hmm. so street dogs are basically free-living dogs who have always been around for thousands of years.

the cool thing about them is that there is almost little to, none artificial breeding. So whoever has survived is pretty much natural selection, survival of the fittest. so their behavior is like the closest resemblance to natural dog behavior. And I, I, I say this as a joke, but you will never find a stupid street dog.

They somehow take decisions with- With such measure, with such, uh, intention. The responses are always appropriate. [00:15:00] The reactions are never over the top. these are dogs who are not big, but n- and not small either, so they’re about average in size, medium dogs. they weigh about maybe 15 to 20 kilos, so about 30 to 45 pounds.

they are mostly brown in color, but now we see, variations in colors as well, black, blacks, whites, some spots. And it’s difficult to identify whether it’s because they, there’s some breeding going on with different breeds, because we do also have pets, dogs living the pet dog life. But we don’t have the resources or facilities to do a DNA test or anything like that, so we don’t actually know.

But this was shared to me by someone who’s researching dogs, is so breed dogs are, they carry recessive genes. So if an, Indian street dog were to breed with, let’s say, a golden retriever, [00:16:00] and then there would be a, like mix, mixed breed puppies, right? And if they bred again, and they bred again, over a period of time, the golden retriever gene would be completely thrown away, and the dog would go back to a free living dog.

Because that’s what genetically… that’s the best case for them to survive. So it’s quite interesting how the history of dogs, especially in India, has recently changed, and that’s thanks to the British Empire. like with many breeds in the whole world, during the Victorian explosion during the 1800s is when the breeding of dogs and kennel clubs just really exploded.

And because the British were already in India by that time and were ruling in India in certain parts and then eventually the whole country, they, they saw street dogs as a sign of oppression, a sign of rebellion, that the street dogs are not listening [00:17:00] to them, are not following their rules. So they actually did a lot of culling in different parts, and tried to introduce the breeds as a, that’s how dogs should be.

there have been many protests from different communities against these policies. There is, there’s a chain of five-star hotels, which at the time of the British Empire used to have a sign outside which said, “No Indians and no dogs.” and that chain was bought by an Indian businessman, and now the, the…

they’re like fancy five-star hotels, but you will see dogs inside in the lobby, in the garden, just making their home inside as well. So-

Jessica: I’m kind of curious, like, what… Do you have an approximate, like, when this was?

Kapil: So the, the British were- Were kicked out in 1947. Right. So the no Indians, no dogs would be [00:18:00] sometime in the early 1900s.

Jessica: Got

Kapil: it. and the five-star hotels now being open, to dogs has been, has been a thing ever since. Okay.

And i- it’s quite interesting because although the British have left, we see the impact of it even now. And being in the dog space in India, this is one of the big things, or the hangover of the British rule, has been that the inclination of people wanting to keep, different breeds as pet dogs, and think of the street dogs as outside dogs.

So they are the ones who live outside, but the ones- Yeah … inside are your different breeds.

Jessica: Yeah.

Kapil: So there’s a very clear distinction of mindset as to who are the inside dogs and who are the outside dogs.

Jessica: Okay. So what I’m hearing is that prior to this, you had this big population of free living street dogs, and as culture [00:19:00] was changing, you started to get more of a population of people wanting pet dogs, Mm-hmm

in India, while then you still have all of these free living dogs that are roaming about. And I’m curious, with all the free roaming dogs, if you can share a little bit more about some of the laws that are protecting them, of, like, why is it that they’re all still there. because if somebody’s listening to this and they’re just imagining, “Well, wait a minute, why are all these dogs around?”

I’m curious if you could share more about that.

Kapil: yeah, it’s a bit complex because this year has been, or since last year, has been quite bad for the free-living dogs in India in terms of laws. Okay. there has been an ongoing hearing in the Supreme Court which started last August and ended, I think, sometime last month.

So earlier, dogs have been protected. not just dogs, but other [00:20:00] animals as well, where they have a right to live. they belong where they live. so we reject the system that dogs should either be in somebody’s house or in a shelter. we want to coexist with dogs and other animals, share the same space with each other.

And the law would be that if there is a free-living dog, you should make sure the dog gets vaccinated and the dog gets sterilized. But after the dog is sterilized, the dog gets placed back into the same spot the dog was picked up from.

Jessica: Okay.

Kapil: so the dog goes back to the same area. Same.

And that’s the dog’s home. Mm-hmm. And there’s an understanding of it amongst the people as well. there, there doesn’t ne- necessarily, is one family or two families that look after the street dogs, but a passerby might, might just offer some cookies. a shopkeeper might, allow the dog to come inside when it rains for shelter.

So they were looked [00:21:00] after by different people in different capacities. But then there have also been incidents of dogs attacking people.

Jessica: Mm.

Kapil: And that has got a lot of media attention in negative ways, and the blame has always gone on the dogs. I think that’s… I would say how bad things have become when we are not even taking accountability and just putting it on another animal who is trying to navigate an ever-changing, urban landscape.

There’s massive urbanization going on. And there’s bound to be fights, there’s bound to be conflict. But dogs have been blamed in a way where there’s now fear in the regular person’s mind, “Will this dog attack me? do I need to be worried? Can I allow my… If I have kids, can I allow my kids to be playing on the streets?

Or [00:22:00] do I need to be, just be careful about how that happens?” And because this was picked up by the media, this was then picked up by the Supreme Court. so this was not something which someone filed a complaint against an organization or people who care for the dogs or anything like that. This was a case that was taken by the Supreme Court out of public safety.

And in the first hearing, they pretty much said that all dogs need to be removed. So that’s, that’s something which is we’ve seen as a pattern where they make these claims which I would like to think they, the Supreme Court judges are smart people, and they- … they, they know what’s going on in the country, right?

Mm-hmm. It feels like this is such an insignificant thing to the other issues that we have, for human, for human life, right? There’s, there’s more people who die from, like, twice the number of people who die from snake bites, than rabies. [00:23:00] And even in rabies, there’s a, it’s a lot of, gray area in terms of was the dog a pet dog that was just roaming around?

Was it a free living dog? Was it a dog who had rabies and was biting people around? So, uh, data is something is also which is very, very bad. And all those things kind of allow people who don’t want the dogs around to push that narrative further that dogs are scary. You have to be afraid of them. They can bite you at any time.

So there was a backlash. There were huge protests. So many people. I think we were all surprised as to how many people that are there that care for the dogs. There were protests, different parts of the country, large numbers gathering together. And I think that kind of made them realize, okay, there’s… it’s not just like we’re gonna say things and things are gonna happen.

So then after many, many months of different sessions in the court, the latest one which came last month is [00:24:00] where they now identify certain populations that need to be removed, and those populations would be in areas where there’s lots of people moving around. So, like universities, schools, bus stations- Mm

railway stations- And that’s also something which they’ve made this decision from a human point of view, but not in the full understanding how human-dog relationship is. Because the moment you take away five dogs from a bus station, in just in a matter of days or weeks, some new dogs are gonna occupy that space.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. That’s exactly what I thought of …

Kapil: and we just… Yeah, and we just don’t have the resources to keep putting in dogs in shelters. Mm … so e- economy is not great, right? So instead of putting money in building structures where you don’t know how many dogs would end up, there’s just so many better ways to go about this, and that’s something which is unfortunately being, [00:25:00] overlooked, is how are dogs adapting to us?

How are dogs living in the, in the environment? and I’m hoping that my work, continues in this, this knowledge gap that we have, is what are their life experiences? How do they go about their day-to-day? And this goes beyond just an ethogram of the, the behaviors of the dogs that they would do, but more of how freedom and agency, impacts their life experiences.

w- can we create environments where the things that dogs like to do, if we make it easier for them to do them, can we coexist that way? Because they are happier, they are more relaxed, and there’s not much of a reason to have, conflict with people, and at the same time have education with people, how to be around dogs.

just in my neighborhood, we used to be just 50 families, but now we are close to 500 families- Wow … because a lot of independent houses or bungalows that we had have been broken down and large apartments have come up [00:26:00] instead. so where there used to be, like, maybe 50 cars moving around, now there’s, like, close to 1,000 cars moving around.

India is… Very few places in India are friendly to walk around, so even for people, there’s a big threat, of all these, rapid urbanization that’s happening. So I think, yeah, I think there’s a huge, mismatch in what, what is seen as development, and this is all influenced by colonialism.

Because as we see, the Britishers came here, they implemented changes, and I feel a lot of us still look up to them as, okay, that’s the way life should be. That’s the ideal way, to be. And now We have plenty of middle class and upper middle class people who have gone abroad, whether it is just as a tourist or for education or settle there, and they have seen Western countries with no dogs around, and they feel, “Okay, this is how it should be, cleaner.”

And then [00:27:00] they come back and be like, “Oh, you guys are so dirty, and you have, like, these dirty dogs moving around,” and stuff like that. Lots of negative, So yeah, it’s- Fascinating … it’s, it’s a battle on many fronts, I feel- Yeah … trying to fight for the dogs. But l- just like any relationship, I think we have to, we have to keep moving, keep the relationship moving forward.

So today we face a certain set of issues and challenges that we need to address, but maybe 20 years from now they would be different, so we need to be prepared. We need to be a- ad- adaptive as well. I always say our street dogs are, they adapt so well. They are incredible. Uh, and I think we should learn something from them and also be prepared to adapt, and not be too fixated on certain ways of living life.

Jessica: Yeah. There are so many things that you mentioned that I wanna dive a little further [00:28:00] into. I’m curious first, ’cause y- there are so many things in there that I’m like, ooh, some some of these will be a little faster and straightforward. Mm-hmm. And then some of these I’m like, ooh, we’re, we’re gonna really dive into some things that you brought up there.

In regards to what you feel on a personal level, because you are an advocate for the street dogs, yet you are very practical, right, in terms of your approach. It’s like you understand- Mm-hmm … we have to take into account the people. We also have to take into account that these are dogs who have lived here for thousands of years.

They are not going to really go anywhere. It’s impossible to somehow exterminate all of them, and that’s not humane, and many people wouldn’t want that anyways. In your personal opinion, what would be like an ideal solution here?

Kapil: I don’t think there is an ideal solution. I think I don’t like to look at it, from a problem-solution point of view, because for me, this is a concept that was, [00:29:00] taught to me a few years ago, called, infinite games.

So there’s- Mm … two types of games, finite games and infinite games. So finite game would be like sports, so would be like basketball, let’s say. There’s two teams, a fixed set of rules. Both the teams have agreed upon, those rules, and there is a winner, and because there is a winner, there is a loser. But life, many things in life, they don’t operate the same way.

So life is more of an infinite game where there are no fixed rules. There are no fixed agreed-upon, set of rules that we say, “Okay, this is how things should be.” And the objective of the game is not to win because there are no winners. So there is no, there is nobody who is the best in education.

There is nobody who is the best in relationship. and it’s this, it’s a similar case with our relationship with dogs. There’s no way which is the best way to be with dogs. So the objective [00:30:00] of- Yeah … the objective of this philosophy is not to try to win, but to try to keep the game going on. Yeah. so that both or all the players who are playing in this game continue to play in the game.

And- Yes … the solutions that may be there could be very applicable to specific problems, so understanding context would be super important. So I can’t generalize a solution that would be like, okay, this is ideal for all free-living dogs in India. and I think that’s what the Supreme Court is trying to do.

They are trying to generalize across, populations and just get dogs into one specie level. But then I like to educate people about, okay, first we need to go from species to populations, and then eventually from population to individual, and then try to get into as local as possible, where we are understanding how life is for that one specific dog.

[00:31:00] And then if the dog needs help, then the solution would be so dependent on what’s going on in that dog’s life. so whether a dog needs to be Unfortunately removed from the environment and put into a home a- and be adopted, or the dog needs to be sent into a rescue or has to be sent to a hospital for medical aid, or whatever, whatever the, the situation is.

So our interventions, So they’re, they’re interventions. There wouldn’t be solutions. Our interventions would be really based on what, what that context looks like for that specific dog.

Jessica: Okay. I like how you’re sharing this perspective of interventions versus solutions, and I appreciate that you are bringing that up because, yes, you are 100% correct that this is more about how do we help humans and dogs just learn how to live with one another.

And there are so many [00:32:00] changes, as you’re describing- Yeah … in the cities of larger populations coming in and infrastructure changes and all of these things that are impacting both people and dogs. And in regards to some of the interventions that you- Mm-hmm … have found helpful, could you share some of those?

Kapil: Yeah. Yeah. I have a very beautiful ongoing story, actually, and, Oh … it’s something that is, because it’s happening right now-

so I think this was in early January. I might be wrong, but start of the year, my partner and I had gone away from the city for a wedding, and on the way back we found two tiny puppies.

So they must be about just two and a half, three weeks old.

Jessica: Wow.

Kapil: Middle of the highway. and moving around, were not confidently, not exploring, so they were super scared. So either somebody has intentionally left them over there or for whatever reason their m- bad, something bad has happened to their mom [00:33:00] and there’s nobody around and they had to figure out life on their own.

So not sure for how long have they been wandering around, but they were just m- middle of a highway, so speeding cars. And as, as things happen with people who work with dogs, we just notice things, right? We, we can’t, uh… It always feels like how, how do these things always happen to me? But it happens to all of us.

Jessica: Yeah.

Kapil: so we saw them and we stopped the car and- Then the first question is: do we intervene? because what would that look like, and what would the consequences of the intervention would be? And after a lot of thought, because I work in the city and I am so well-connected, I was like, “If somebody has to intervene, I think I’m the right person to do that because I know people.

I know we’ll figure out a way where they can, stay alive or thrive as well.” So we decided to pick them up. We got them to my place, but my dog was not okay with them [00:34:00] at all. and that I did without, without the consent of my dog or without the consent of the two puppies, right? Mm-hmm. Uh, so I was open to the idea that they might not

I need to have a plan B. And then they were, taken into foster care by a lovely family, and they were raised, there together for about a month and a half more, using puppy formula and other things, and they were vaccinated as well. so I would say they, they were adoptable at that time. But they were both female pups, and finding a home for an Indian female street dog is so challenging.

the, the mindset of people, like with their own kids, they, they want boys. They don’t want girls. and unfortunately, it’s the same with dogs. They’re like, “We don’t, we don’t want female dogs. We want male dogs.” And the reason why they don’t want female dogs is because if they get puppies, then who’s gonna be looking after 10 [00:35:00] other dogs or whatever?

And then if we say, “Okay, we can help you get them, neutered and there won’t be any puppies for, for your dog,” and they’re like, “Nah, that’s not natural. Who are we to decide, Hmm … that they can’t get to reproduce?” And, and I agree with that in, many ways, that yes, who are we to decide who gets to reproduce and who does not?

But that’s where it’s just like, okay, but it’s so conflicting things happening at the same time. Um, so for these two pups, we found an adopter who was willing to take them together, at a, at a farm. so this is a farmer, far away from the city, about an eight-hour drive in the middle of nowhere. And- We wanted them to stay together, so that was another intervention because there were people saying, “Okay, we would like to adopt one, but not both together.”

But because I just felt that they have been together since the very start, what if it does not work [00:36:00] out? What if they get further stress if they get separated and then the family decides to be like, “Nah, this is not working out for us.” so I felt it would be in their best interest to stick together.

And thankfully they got adopted together at the farm far away. But the farmer had requested us to, get them neutered. Mm-hmm. And I was like, “Okay, just stay in touch. and you know, I’ll figure out when we go about it.” And because I’ve studied and then said, “Okay, should you neuter your dog or should you not?

And if you- if the answer is yes, then when?” And all of those questions are also popping up. But the farmer requested that if possible, please neuter the dogs before monsoon. So monsoon is sometime around now, so it’s so hot right now, it’s like, it feels like 100 degrees, and any moment it will start raining and it will keep on raining for like maybe three months every day.

Jessica: Wow. [00:37:00]

Kapil: Yeah. So, so it gets nice and, but it also get annoying at s- some point, you know? And then you’ll be like just praying. Like now I’m praying for the rain, but in a few weeks I’m gonna be like, “Ah, when will this stop?”

Jessica: Yeah.

Kapil: So the farmer requested before the monsoon starts. So the monsoon has been historically the mating season for dogs.

dogs would mate in the monsoon and give birth, in and around November, December. So start of winter. So I’ll s- there’s some, I would say, logic to it, based on the season and how they figured out this is the good time to give birth. So we’re like, okay, the pups are about close to six months.

so medically at least we can get them neutered. legally as well, by law for at least the free living dogs, they can be only neutered after six months. So not at two months, three months as we see in Western countries. but with pet dogs, the, the timeline [00:38:00] shifts. And also when I say legally, it’s not really enforced, you know.

It’s just, it’s there in the letter of the law, but nobody really would be enforcing it if somebody did not follow it. So we got them neutered, and we got them, re- sent back to the farm, and they seem to be doing okay. But I- that’s the, that’s the solution that I feel was best for these two pups. So a few months ago we found them in, in the middle of the road, probably going to die in the next few hours, either run over or starve.

Uh, either way, not a good, not a good death. So we intervened, but we… at the same time we have also taken away some of their freedom away, because they are now gonna be living life as pet dogs. We have also taken away their opportunity to have their own family, And we also have put on human expectations on them because [00:39:00] the farmer and his family have expectations of the dogs, whether to guard the farm or s- so on and so forth.

So I don’t know. I don’t have it… I feel unpleasant inside having taken decisions for somebody else, especially about, reproduction, that I have decided for you that you’re not going to be having any puppies. And I say, “Okay, that’s in the best interest,” and you know, all of that.

There’s too many dogs and stuff like that. But I think deep down, I just feel just uneasy about it. but at the same time, I also know that that does not mean that you don’t take action. I think inaction is something that I’m not comfortable with either.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Kapil: so I, while I keep trying to learn more, maybe go on my own journey of education, ethics, morality, but at the same time, I know I have to take decisions that may not, be taken maybe 10 years down the line, and that’s [00:40:00] okay.

Mm-hmm. So as of today, I feel this was a good solution for the two pups. yeah. And wh- what, what do you feel about this?

Jessica: I can see how you’re faced with a couple of different options of varying interventions. You know, right? Different varying degrees of interventions. And- I think most people who love dogs would not have left those two puppies there.

Mm-hmm. Most people would not. And like you said, they would’ve starved to death or gotten run over, and neither of those are a good death for an animal. Yeah. And I think if that happened in the US, I think it would have actually been a very, very similar outcome- Yeah … in terms of getting the puppies in, somebody took care of them, made sure they had, you know, they were orphaned, right?

The mother dog wasn’t there, so we had to do bottle feeding and so forth. [00:41:00] And then they- Yeah … would have gotten adopted into pet homes. And even me saying that out loud, knowing that these were free living dogs- Mm-hmm … who then went into a pet dog home, I have my own issues … with, with that, and that’s because people, we’re all entitled to our own varying moral compasses of- Yeah

what we are comfortable with, what we think is best for an animal, and there are going to be people out there who think the best life for an animal is to make sure that they are in a home, and they have a roof over their head, and- Mm-hmm … they have a human there to look out for them, and they are put on leashes, and they are walked, and all of these things.

Kapil: Yeah.

Jessica: But I think when you’re starting with a dog that was already free living, I think- Mm-hmm … [00:42:00] that’s where there’s this difference, right? And this is also perhaps where you and I probably align on many levels, is that I, I don’t think that we should be taking- A lot of free-living dogs and trying to put them into pet dog homes.

That is something- Yeah … that I think you and I, w- we see this from different perspectives, but also similar perspectives, and I, I think what I’ll share is because I, being a dog trainer in the US where it’s fairly common, for dogs who are rescued to come from other countries. Mm-hmm. It really depends regional where you are in the US, but when I lived in San Diego, because we lived so close to the Mexican border- Yeah

we would get a significant amount of dogs that were being brought over and then placed into- Yeah … pet dog homes. And- Yeah … I saw how much a lot of these dogs really struggled to adapt to pet dog life. Mm-hmm. And I wouldn’t [00:43:00] say all of them, because I did meet some who seemed to be pretty darn happy with their new arrangements, and they did really well.

And then yet, I also found that a lot of them struggled, and I remember just thinking to myself in my head, I don’t even know if I really even talked to anybody about this, but I just remember thinking in my head, “Well, what if they just were left where they were?” Or, “What if they were able-” Yeah … “to get some medical care,” right?

‘Cause like you said, they get run over by cars, or they’re injured, or they have an infection or something. So- Mm-hmm … what if an intervention was we give them some medical treatment, and then we just let them go back to where they were? Yeah. And part of this is also because I’ve traveled a lot in Mexico, so I’ve seen the street dogs.

I’ve seen them everywhere. Mm-hmm. And, You know, you go to the- Yeah … convenience stores, and the dogs are waiting outside ’cause they know this is where- Yes … people buy some snacks, and so maybe they’ll give, you know, maybe they’ll give me a snack.

And, and so I have [00:44:00] personal experience, too, you know, with, with seeing free-living dogs in the environment. Yeah. And as someone who has just seen it in both of those perspectives of, like, I’m brought into a home, and somebody is hiring me to, quote-unquote, “fix this issue,” right? Well, this dog- Mm-hmm … is having issues accepting new people coming into the home.

And I’m- Yeah … in my head, I’m thinking, like, “Well, it kind of came in the box,” you know? Like, the dog is a free-living dog. They are naturally- Yeah … going to be very aware of their territory and who is coming in it. And- Yeah … so there’s just this other element of, like, these l- as you’ve mentioned, these expectations that we’re putting on these dogs in pet dog homes- Mm-hmm

that I also wonder, is that really fair to the dog as an individual? So that’s kind of where my perspective is coming from. And I know that you had mentioned- Yeah … that you had seen some of this as well in terms of dogs that were free living, getting into pet dog homes. Now they’re [00:45:00] starting to have some, some trouble there and I’m wondering- Yeah

if you could share a little bit about that. Like, what has your experience been with that and how the dogs have adjusted?

Kapil: so I have very two incredible stories. Okay. one is, of this free-living dog who used to live on the hill, which is in the middle of the city. So my dogs… I do have pet dogs.

my parents have two dogs, and I have one dog. and my parents take the dogs for a walk on the hill every day, twice a day, so they can roam around, and it’s a nice, fun outing for them. And they meet different dogs on the hill on their walk. and some they get along, some they just have a verbal argument, and then they go their own ways.

But there’s this one dog who always accompanied my, my dogs, and on days when there would be thunderstorms, or fireworks, then she would choose to [00:46:00] walk back to the car, get into the car, come home, spend the day- and then the next day, when the dogs would go again, go out on a walk, and then go back to her particular part of the hill.

Jessica: Yeah.

Kapil: And she kept on doing that the, for eight years until this year she’s like, “I don’t wanna go back.”

Jessica: Oh.

Kapil: So, so she would go on a walk, but instead- Uh-huh … of going back to her spot- Yeah … she would just walk back to the car, get into the car, and be like, I would like to go home, to your home.”

Jessica: Oh, I love that.

Kapil: so she’s settled in very well.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Kapil: ’cause I think over the past eight years she’s been home at least 100 times, so she’s very familiar with how the home environment is, how the setup is, how to get along with the other dogs. and I, I see no issues with [00:47:00] her. and she seems to be very happy as well.

She gets to go back. Um, I remember last week she did go back to her spot. She just decided that maybe she would, wanted to check it out. so we, we said, “Okay, you can go there.” And then a few hours later, my mom went, to where she usually is, and she was just chilling over there, and she… My mom was like, “Do you wanna come back?”

And she just followed my mom back to the car, and they came home. so I think that’s something which I’ve seen, okay, play out well. Yeah … but at the same time, this is just from two days ago. A friend of mine adopted, an indie street dog, as a puppy, two months, and- I usually don’t like to be the professional, for my friends ’cause I feel it-

it create

Jessica: Yeah, you don’t have to explain. Yeah, yeah.

Kapil: [00:48:00] so, I remember him saying that the dog is somewhat fearful, and I remember just going to his place to meet the dog and just give him some of few, few things here and there, you know? Not- nothing, no proper consult. And, stayed in touch every now and then, but the dog was sent to a board and train for a month and a half.

and I feel the- so the board and trains over, I don’t know how they are over there. I personally do not like the way they are being done over here- Yeah … because it’s almost entirely about obedience training, and that’s about it. and I just feel that for, for an Indian dog to go through, like, a month and a half of obedience training is like forcing an artist to learn math, Yeah

or, you know, just like a complete mismatch.

Jessica: Yeah.

Kapil: Um, and the dog is taken out of, the new environment which the dog is already adjust- in the process of adjusting to, and at four and a half months has been now [00:49:00] sent to this random place with random dogs, no context as to what is going on, away from now attachment figures that have been built, and being sent back as a way of, okay, we have done very good work with him.

So my friend was feeling good about his dog, and he’s like, “Okay, can I, can I accompany you guys on the walk on the hill?” Uh, and it’s like, yeah, sure. Just come on over, you know? Uh, ’cause I was like, I didn’t even give it too much thought. Um, so we, we get there first, and there’s, like, about eight dogs over there, seven Indies and one golden retriever, and my friend comes in his car.

he steps out of the car and runs about 20 feet straight into the direction of the golden retriever and starts attacking him.

Jessica: Wow.

Kapil: [00:50:00] Yeah. And it, it, it, it all happened, like, in a matter of few seconds. and before anyone could react, the, the guardian of the golden retriever did not know much, went, tried to break the fight, got bitten really bad in the process.

his whole hand was bleeding, so many puncture wounds. It was so bad. And all of this in, like, a minute and a half of just getting there.

Jessica: Oh my gosh.

Kapil: And then we’re like, “Okay, just go, go away.” We sent my friend away, with his dog bec- because the rest of the dogs were also then in a bit of a shock as to what has just happened. thankfully both, both the the dogs and the human, they’re, they’re doing okay. But this is quite worrying, for an indie dog to choose getting into a conflict as the first [00:51:00] action is such an unusual thing to happen, and I really wonder what’s going on in that dog’s brain that led to that behavior.

Uh-

Jessica: Yeah …

Kapil: and this happened, like, literally today is Thursday. This happened on Tuesday, Tuesday morning. Uh-

Jessica: Wow. I would love to talk a little bit about how you see the, the Indian dogs interacting with one another and resolving conflict. Because- Mm-hmm … I think for people who have not seen free living dogs out- Yeah

out and about, and seeing how they are navigating things with one another, navigating space, navigating resources, which could be, you know, food, desired, you know- Mm-hmm … resting spots, whatever, they maybe don’t really pay attention to what great communication these dogs have with one another. And like you said- [00:52:00] Mm-hmm

it’s survival of the fittest out there. And so when we think of survival of the fittest, we’re not thinking of the dog who’s going around whooping all the other dogs’ asses. Like, that’s not actually how this is working. the dogs, the way that they are surviving is through the ability to communicate without escalating their behavior.

Because when you are getting in dog fights, you’re risking injury to yourself, which that’s- Mm-hmm … actually because you’re not gonna get antibiotics from the veterinarian. you, you are actually more likely to not survive. And so that’s actually not how dogs have evolved to communicate, except now we’ve got a lot of, like, US pet dogs.

Whoa, boy. You know, where we’ve got… Like, we’re trying to put all them together, and some of their communications is, is leading to a lot of conflict, like what you just described, what happened that incident. And so can you share just a little bit more about that? How are these dogs communicating when you [00:53:00] have all of these things available to them, and they’re able- Yeah

to live amongst one another without this input from humans?

Kapil: yeah. I will, I will start with a few words from, one of the tour participants from last year, Justine Shermans from the UK. Yeah. And she described that it’s as if you’re watching the dogs in slow motion. Mm … and as a professional, she would have to slow down videos of behaviors of pet dogs to show to the clients as to what’s happening.

But while she was here, it felt like she was watching that in real time, and it was so clear-

Jessica: Yeah …

Kapil: the way the dogs were moving, that the way the dogs were, using non-verbal cues for communication. and I would say if two dogs find themselves in a spot where they need to send a message across, [00:54:00] it’s, as I said at the start, it’s always measured.

They, they know how much to say. Mm-hmm. and because there is, as you said- A desire to not escalate, because not just the risk of injury, but also risk of death, if they get into conflict. So they, they would prefer to not get into a physical altercation. Verbal altercations, there are many. And, and, and in different levels.

sometimes it’s just a side eye and the dog moves away. sometimes it would be growling, snarling, taking a few steps forward to maybe show that, “I have the ability to cause harm, but I don’t want to.” and that’s something which they really understand very well. Um-

Maybe even genetically over thousands of years, this information has gone down from mother dog to the pups and over generations. So it’s not something that I’ve seen, [00:55:00] dogs lose out on in terms of even if dogs get adopted and start living the pet dog life, they still have this ability to communicate and resolve conflicts only through communication.

the issues that come up is when there is a leash attached to the dog.

Jessica: Yeah. Yes, wow. Yeah. Not surprised.

Kapil: Yeah. Um, so a lot of of my clients have so many issues with what they call reactivity and-

Jessica: Mm-hmm …

Kapil: just do- dog reactivity, not so much with people, but with other dogs.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Kapil: and they fail to understand why this would happen because…

So this is something which one of the things that I like to do in my workshop with communities as well is to talk about intent versus impact. And a lot of decisions are made with the best of intentions, but don’t have the right [00:56:00] impact, from the dog’s point of view. And because there is so much focus on the intent that I’m doing such a noble thing or I’m rescuing the dog, that there is less accountability on the impact, and nobody’s measuring what the impact is for the dog.

So a lot of my sessions are about, okay, what is your intention, and how does that have an impact on your dog? And then can we start taking decisions that would have a better impact based on what the dog would rather be, preferring?

Jessica: Mm-hmm. I love that. Yeah.

Such a great way to frame that, because people love dogs, right? That’s why we- Mm-hmm … want them in our homes, and that’s why we want to save them if we see that they’re injured. But like you said, we also have to think about that might be our intention, that we s- we really think we’re gonna give them something even better- Yeah

But the impact to the [00:57:00] dog, if you really look at it through a very objective point of view, I think when we start looking at it through that lens, we might see something different.

Kapil: Yeah. And make different decisions, which-

Jessica: Mm-hmm …

Kapil: would then be like the dog maybe feels heard and feels- Yeah

seen more.

Jessica: Yeah.

Kapil: resulting into a better relationship as well, right? So-

Jessica: Mm-hmm …

Kapil: yeah. I think so much of dog training is just human psychology, human education, I guess.

Jessica: Big part of that in there, yes.

Yeah. It’s

Kapil: helping people- At least, at least with the free living dogs, right? Mm-hmm.

Because it’s just, they are, they are so easy to be with. You, rarely see a dog who is causing trouble, in spaces that are not super crowded. I remember doing interviews with villagers, on understanding their perspective of dogs, and they would all say that, “There is [00:58:00] no reason for a dog to attack me unless the dog has rabies.

And if that’s the case, I will kill the dog. I will beat the dog up to death, shoot the dog, take any measure. But if the dog is healthy and does not have rabies specifically, why would the dog attack me?” The dog… If the dog found, you know, himself or herself in an uncomfortable situation, there, there’s just so much space, the dog would just leave.

Jessica: Yeah.

Kapil: But it’s so much different in urban spaces where there isn’t enough space, and they have to then be vocal about their displeasure, which then gets misunderstood by people as, “Oh, this dog is aggressive.” Those labels then start coming up, and then it gets escalated into a person throwing a stone at the dog, the dog learning this is bad.

Eventually the person, a new person might just s- bend down to tie a shoelace, [00:59:00] but the dog might think, “Oh, that is a stone,” that the dog will… the person’s gonna pick up and charge at the person. So, yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. And you’re describing a scenario there, and I’m thinking also in the US where we have all these restrictions on our pet dogs.

Mm-hmm. And more so now, you know, where- Yeah … we have a lot of pet dogs that are living in environments that probably that same person may have not decided to 30 years ago to bring a pet dog and have it live in that environment. But we’ve had a lot of cultural changes in this country of what- Yeah … are acceptable environments to put pet dogs in.

And now I think there’s been a culmination of many, many different factors, but now we have a lot of conflicts between people and dogs. So you’re mentioning, you know, somebody [01:00:00] throwing a stone at a, at a street dog to get them to, to stay away, and then I’m also thinking of a pet dog inside of a home who is growling at a child to be, to- Mm-hmm

to communicate, “I’m, I don’t really want a child climbing all over me.” and then is getting punished for that. Um, and then them feeling, “Perhaps I need to escalate my behavior next time because this isn’t really working for me, and I have to live in the confines of this home”- Yeah … and they don’t have- very many choices available to them.

I think- Yeah … I think one of the things that I think has really come across through our conversation is that when dogs have a lot of space available to them, they often choose to take the space. They don’t often- Yeah … choose to escalate their behavior, and I think that would go with both do- the free living dogs that you’re describing, in your country and also what I’ve seen here in [01:01:00] the US.

even in, in places like dog parks, which are totally artificial, you know- Mm-hmm … environments to throw- Yeah … a bunch of strange dogs who don’t know each other in. Yeah. But when the parks are smaller, you see more conflict. When you have the- Yeah … spaces that are bigger, you see less conflict. So I think if there’s anything that a listener could come away with today is just to even think about that role of space.

You know, how much space is available for this dog to- Absolutely … move around and avoid things that they, they don’t want to get involved in compared to the opposite.

Kapil: Yeah. Most of the times, um, I would imagine dogs would be on a leash, uh, beyond a dog park, right? So perhaps we should be making, taking steps to create that space and being proactive ifs- if we feel that our dog is, uncomfortable because of the lack of space.

Yeah.

Jessica: That too. Yes, giving them more space when we can see that they’re stressed about something, all of those things absolutely [01:02:00] make a big difference. I’m curious, like, as we’re wrapping up here, I mean, I feel I could talk to you for hours about all this- Yeah … but I want to respect your time here.

what is it about street dogs that you wish more people understood?

Kapil: what do you mean by people in India, people in the rest of the world?

Jessica: Ooh, I guess you are

Kapil: right People who don’t

Jessica: have access to street dogs. Oh. I know, ’cause you are right. a totally different context, right?

Kapil: Yeah.

Jessica: Totally different context.

I wonder if we could do both, because one of the things that stood out to me in our conversation, one of the things that you mentioned earlier, was that there are people in India who have gone abroad, studied abroad- in Western countries, and they’re seeing, “Hey,

Look at San Diego,” you know? there’s no street dogs wandering around. But they’re probably completely oblivious to- the pet dogs and, and I will say the suffering that pet dogs endure. Not all [01:03:00] of them- but a lot of them, because they don’t- have the choices. So they’re seeing this one world and thinking, “This is how it should be,” and they’re going home and thinking, you know, “Let’s change all these things, and we should have…

We should be looking more like that.” Um, and then there’s- Yeah … people like yourself, and even, and even me, who- who’ve seen kind of both, and been like, well, of course, you know, we’re never gonna come up with some magic solution, but I do think that When people have more of an understanding of things, I think that that does help them- Yeah

lead with more empathy and so forth. So I’m kind of curious if we could do it for both. Somebody who’s in the US who’s like, “I’ve never seen a street dog,” and they, they think it’s this poor animal starving on the- Mm-hmm … streets, you know? And then you have- Yeah … somebody who is living in a busy city who’s annoyed by having all these dogs around all the time.

I’m wondering if you could do both. I think it’d be really- Yeah … really helpful.

Kapil: absolutely. So for people in India, my [01:04:00] hope is that they understand that dogs have a right to live even if they did not have any utility value to us. so a lot of times in the discussion of should the dogs be here, should the dogs be removed from their, environment, the conversation in favor of dogs is that they kill the rodents, they keep the community safe, and it’s always a utility aspect, that they are useful for us, so we should keep them, and because maybe that’s the argument that the majority of people

understand and accept to some level. But what I would like to see is… say and have people understand is that they have a right even if they were completely useless to us, because th- they happen to be here at the same time as we have been for many, many years. just because we are moving to a different kind of environment and shifting [01:05:00] from, mud to cement, from open houses to small apartments does not mean that we get to decide how other animals, should exist or not.

They are also adapt- they are being forced to adapt anyway, not just dogs, but cats, birds. We don’t see that many birds nowadays as we used to, Yeah … because there’s not that many trees anymore. and just because sometimes they might be a nuisance in human terms, by barking at night or chasing a vehicle or car, does not mean we can say like, “Okay, we need to completely eradicate them.”

So this acceptance that we share the earth with other animals gets especially highlighted with dogs because they share such a deep relationship with us.

Jessica: Yeah.

Kapil: So that’s for Indians. For people in Western countries, [01:06:00] um… So we, on the dog tours that we did, we also, uh, wrote a paper about it, and hopefully it gets published soon.

But it was capturing the, the journey of the people who came here, and these are all dog professionals, so these are people who understand dogs. Uh, they are just not regular tourists. And we documented their perceptions before they came to India, and a lot of those perceptions were that the dogs would be in poor welfare, they would not want human connection, they would be starving.

a lot of it was from a sympathy, negative, point of view. And at the end of 12 days when they went back, almost all of them had tears in their eyes, feeling bad for dogs in their own countries. And they felt- Uh-huh … this, this is such- Such an incredible life that [01:07:00] they live. It’s not one without hardships.

There are many hardships, but it’s such a rich life. They have experiences that pet dogs will never get to have. they will be able to make choices and decisions that do not exist for pet dogs, and that has just resulted in so many dogs, despite being in not in the best of physical condition, but they were still, I would say, in much better welfare than so many pet dogs in excellent health, and getting excellent food.

and that was something which, I would like people who live in Western countries to know that there is a way of life for dogs as well, which does not have a human attached to it, which is not built on our routines and our schedule, and that the dogs can live in and around humans but not be dependent on humans.

and they can decide [01:08:00] what interactions to have, and that plays such a huge role for any individual when that freedom is there to be in control of your own life.

Jessica: Yeah Gosh, well, this was a, a beautiful conversation, I have to say

Kapil: Thank you. Same here.

Jessica: You’re a genuinely kind man. Yeah, truly. And, like, what you’re doing your work in India and everything, just the, the value that you put on, on life Yeah. I’m like getting teary.

Kapil: No, this was incredible. Thank you for-

Jessica: Yeah …

Kapil: I think you’ve c- made the safe space, right, where I can share these things without, any reservations, so

Jessica: thank you for that.

Okay. Oh, good. Well, that means a lot to me. but thank you so much for coming on, truly. Thank you. Thank you. And, yes, and I’m gonna be on the lookout for these tours that you have coming [01:09:00] up.

Mm-hmm. I would absolutely love to come on one, when my- Yeah … life allows, so thank you.

Kapil: Thank you for having me.

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