ACE stands for Animal Centered Education, and it was started by Sarah Fisher. Sadly, Sarah is no longer with us, but I know how much her work has meant to people and how impactful it has been for dogs, and I didn’t want to miss an opportunity to talk about it.

We’re joined by the lovely Kim Palermo, who helps us break down ACE Freework, what it is, how it’s beneficial, and so much more. 

About Kim:

Kim Palermo CPDT-KA is a Certified Control Unleashed Instructor (CCUI) and ACE (Animal Centred Education) Practitioner. She has been working with dogs professionally for over 20 years and has been an avid dog owner and sports enthusiast her entire life. Kim owns a dog training and dog walking business with her husband near Boston, Massachusetts and teaches fulltime at Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. She has a fondness for helping dogs with big feelings, and uses compassion and kindness with every animal and human that she works with.

Kim’s passion is to help others pursue their dream of training dogs and she continues to expand her business in a way that supports growth, mentorship, and opportunity for her team.  She is a mentor for the Control Unleashed certification program, the CATCH dog trainers program, and for individual trainers.  She has spoken in conferences, teaches in-person workshops, and presents for her local community. During her free time she likes to escape to the woods to hike, is a beekeeper, raises a flock of chickens, ducks, turkeys, and guinea hens, and dreams of the day when she has a farm.

kimpalermo.com
facebook.com/kimberly.palermo
instagram/kimanddogs

Transcript

Jessica: [00:00:00] I’m Jessica Wheatcraft, and this is Rethinking Reactivity, a podcast designed to educate, empower, and equip the modern handler of reactive dogs. Whether you have a reactive dog or you help people with their reactive dogs, you’re in the right place.

Oh, hello. It has been a while. Lots of life happening on my end, but I am also so excited to be back with another season of Rethinking Reactivity. We’re starting the season with a discussion on ACE free work. ACE stands for animal-centered education, and it was started by Sarah Fisher. Sadly, Sarah is no longer with us, but I know how much her work has meant to so many people and how impactful it has been for dogs, and I didn’t want to miss an opportunity to talk about it.

I wish I was able to interview Sarah [00:01:00] and that I had an opportunity to know her more in person. I only met her briefly at the ABK conference last July outside of London, and I let my nerves get the best of me and really didn’t talk to her very long. So, yes, I still get nervous approaching colleagues, and missing that opportunity to talk to Sarah is something that I really regret.

Yet, her work will live on, and I had the privilege of sitting down with Kim Palermo, who is an ACE practitioner, an accomplished dog trainer, and teaches both pet parents and other dog professionals. She made it really easy to discuss ACE free work, which if you aren’t familiar with it, is probably going to sound really abstract at first.

And that’s because it encompasses many things and has a lot of different applications, but it’s a powerful way to learn about a [00:02:00] dog, their preferences, how they move their bodies, and so much more. There are a lot of ways we can help reactive dogs, and ACE free work is one of them. I love that Kim is here to teach us about it, and she’s such a lovely person, and I really enjoyed this conversation a lot.

I think you will too. Let’s dive in.

Kim, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Kim: Thank you for having me.

Jessica: We’re gonna talk about Ace-Free Work today, and I know that a lot of people in our industry are familiar with Sarah Fisher and her work. And I also feel like there’s people who may not be familiar with her work, and I think it’s so important that we have this opportunity to talk about it, because it can be helpful for so many dogs.

So I’m just really grateful for this opportunity to have you to [00:03:00] help us you know, teach others about what Ace-Free Work is, why it could be helpful for dogs, how they can incorporate it, or at least elements of it. Sure. Yeah. Um, and so forth.

And so I suppose w- what I want to start with is if somebody isn’t familiar with Ace-Free Work how would you share with them? How would you describe it?

Kim: Oh my gosh. That is a very hard question actually. And I once asked Sarah that. I said “What’s your elevator pitch for Ace-Free Work?” And she’s like, “Oh, I don’t really have one.”

Um, I was like, “Okay.” Um, but in general so ACE stands for Animal Centered Education. And so that is based in Bath, England, um, and was founded by Sarah Fisher at Tilly Farn, which is, from what I’ve heard, this gorgeous property where a lot of what Sarah has- You know, what she learned and taught took place there.

Unfortunately, I have yet to go [00:04:00] there, though it’s definitely something that I plan to do someday. But so Sarah ended up, she was working with some shelter dogs, and then even her own dogs, and noticed that a lot of dogs really struggled with the concept of being handled or having equipment on them.

And so she created this concept of free work, where dogs essentially got to move around on different textures and such on their own, so freely, and this is ideally without any equipment on or anything. And what she discovered, Sarah was just always such a curious person. She was always learning. So she discovered that she could really figure out a dog’s preferences, um, and also what their, essentially, like, their baseline is.

Like, when a dog is calm and relaxed and moving freely, what does that look like? And then if we go and introduce equipment, let’s say. Let’s say we introduce a harness, just in the picture, place it on the [00:05:00] ground. Does the dog change at all? Do they eat faster? Do they move differently? Those kinds of things.

So it allows us to learn a lot about our dogs without influencing them. Even if we think of we’re all teaching our dogs to walk on a leash by our side, how is that influencing their soft tissue or their structure, their muscle development? You know, a lot of dogs tend to, if they’re always walked on the left side, their muscles grow accordingly, right?

They tend to always look up to the right. She was essentially giving them this freedom to move around on their own and learning from there. So that’s where Ace Free Work kind of came about, and I guess essentially, if you want to envision it in your head, it’s a number of different stations, we call them stations, that would allow the dog to eat food.

In general, they’re usually like snuffle mats and lick mats and different ways to access food with, activating the seeking system in mind. And in addition [00:06:00] to that, the stations are raised so that they’re structurally comfortable for the dog. So if we envision our dog eating from their bowl on the ground, they have to lower their head.

They might put, like, their front legs wide or unbalanced in order to lower their shoulders to reach that food, and we don’t know if there’s perhaps some discomfort that goes along with that. Now, if we raise the food a little bit, if we think of just a raised diner That is preventing the dog from putting that strain on their head, neck, shoulders, front legs, whatever it might be, and so they can consume the food in a more comfortable position.

So ultimately, it’s raised stations with licking and eating and different kinds of foods and textures, um, so that our dogs are essentially emotionally and physically comfortable. So that wasn’t really an elevator [00:07:00] pitch. It was a little bit longer, but

Jessica: You know

what, I actually like how you said that Sarah didn’t have an elevator pitch- Yeah

because that’s how you know when something is gonna be good, and that there isn’t just a simple explanation for it. And I think that’s why when I was trying to think about our conversation today and what I wanted to talk about, I just kept thinking of ACE Free Work as being just this really, it- it’s many things.

It’s not just one thing. And the way that you use it and the way that you get information from the dog, the type of information you can get from the dog, it’s so many things. Mm-hmm. So I think, yeah, we don’t need to… I’m, I’m a big fan of going into nuances and details on this podcast. Yeah. Um, we don’t need to do elevator pitches for anything.

And in fact, I think m- I think my listeners like the nuance. They want to know the details of things. Of like, “Well, why does this work?” Or, “Why would we do something [00:08:00] in this way? What’s the benefit of this?” So yeah. So I would say let’s dive into all of the details with it.

Kim: Yeah.

So, um, I would say, like, ultimately, I look at free work as a way to reset our dog’s system.

It’s a way, like I said, they’re able to move freely, be themselves, and it- it’s a lot about observation. You don’t have to sit there and observe your dog the whole time. I much prefer to watch my dogs do free work than, like, watch TV or something that night, because I really do enjoy the observation part.

But we do want to watch them enough where we’re getting a sense of, like, what their preferences are and everything. But by allowing them to do that, I think of it almost as us humans, if we were to do yoga or meditation or something like that, where we’re helping our bodies in a healthy way that also then impacts our mind.

So it really kind of allows our dogs to have that [00:09:00] opportunity. But in addition to that, like yoga or meditation or, or whatever, you know, it is that you participate in, it does reduce stress, for sure. And that’s one thing, um, I recently taught a free work class for Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, and one of the Things I’ve heard over and over again was, “My dog is more relaxed on walks.

My dog is more calm at night.” Like, it just, we’re giving our dogs this activity where they can practice relaxation. That’s just gonna help them. But it also helps them posturally, so it helps them to start to adjust their body movements and their patterns. If, let’s go back to my dog that’s always on the left.

If he’s always looking up to the right, and now I’m allowing him to just, do his own thing and explore this, um, setup, then he might start looking more to the, to the left. And so he’s gonna start to change his body patterns. It also definitely can allow us to see if [00:10:00] our dog has anything physically uncomfortable.

There’s a few certain things that I look for. Like, I look for a straight top line. I look for relatively balanced legs. If I don’t see that, or I see some, you know, a dog is constantly offsetting their weight, you know, from their, their left to their right or something, then that’s information for us. So also, a lot of my students then ended up going to, you know, a local chiropractor or a PT or, or their vet just to find out if there was something structurally going on with their dog.

That’s another benefit to it. So my puppy Sunday, I call her a puppy. She’s two years old. She’ll be my puppy until I get another one. So I do conformation with her, and she is very structurally sound, but I do find, like collies are a free-stacking breed. She’s a collie. And gosh, she free stacks so easily because it’s so natural for her to stand balanced and have that straight top line, and I’ve just kind of built that pattern over time with free [00:11:00] work.

And then we can also use it to … See, I’m gonna keep going and going now with all these benefits. But we can also use it to discover foods that our dogs like, and also help dogs that aren’t very foodie. So again, going back to Sunday, when she came to me, she was not very interested in eating, and she just learned to eat through free work.

And I had a little raised snuffle mat set up in the kitchen where I kept her, and it got to the point where I’d look over, and she would be sitting in front of her, her snuffle mat like, “More, please.” And so that became her way of asking when she was hungry and also enjoying eating more.

We can use, like, a variety of different foods to discover- What our dog truly likes. I think a lot of people tend to think high value as, you know, I think of, like, at my local dog training school here, I’ll just say bring soft easy to swallow treats, right? That’s like the thing we say.

[00:12:00] And what I’ve found through free work is so many dogs like crunchy, chewy, like, bigger treats. And if you think about it, they’re using their jaw, right? They’re slowing down their eating with it. So I started to incorporate that in other training that I do. So if a dog is somewhat aroused we’ll switch to, like, a crunchier treat, and it makes such a difference.

So we can just learn so much about our dogs through it, and then at the same time they’re practicing all this good stuff. So I’ll stop there in case you have any questions, ’cause

Jessica: I love all of it. I love all of it. Let’s dive into each of those pieces. So let’s start first with the different food preferences, and I love that you’re bringing this up because one of the things that tends to be like an unintended consequence of trying to figure out what your dog likes is that we hand the food to the dog, and there is, like, this [00:13:00] expectation that we’re setting with it, right?

Of like- Absolutely. Yeah And the dogs perceive that. And for the dogs that are really sensitive about taking food, or maybe they feel like they’re the type that if it’s a new food, so they just want to see what it is first before they put it in their mouth, and then we keep- Mm-hmm … shoving it at the dog.

Like, “Well, you should just put this into your mouth immediately,” because it’s food and, and we as humans just think dogs should want all food all the time, and when I hand it over, you should immediately gobble it up. Yeah. And these are our expectations that we’re bringing to the table, and most dogs are not like that.

And so I think what I’m hearing is that there’s two things at play, is that for one, because you are putting the food and it’s freely available to the dog, the human is out of the picture, so it doesn’t… Technically, the humans are setting all this up, but they’re not the ones that are handing the food over to the dog.

Correct. So that’s one way that we’re taking away, like, the social pressure that a lot of dogs will often feel when food is present. And [00:14:00] then at the same time, because you’re trying to offer different types of food, then we’re also getting an idea of what the dog might gravitate to and why. And so I’m kind of curious, how would you set some of this up?

You mentioned, like, LickiMat and Snuffle Mat. And so do you have different kinds of foods that you just put on different, you know, obviously you’re putting them on, on different surfaces and different things for the dogs to eat out of. But if you were gonna set up a free work station or stations for a dog for the first time what kind of different foods would you be using?

Kim: Sure.

So for one, let’s say I was gonna try out three different kinds of foods. I would have each the three foods on every single station. Oh, yeah. Because I don’t want a particular station to be the dog’s favorite, and so that’s why they choose that food. And what’s interesting is I find that when some dogs first learn this, they’ll eat everything from one station, then move to the next station, eat everything, and then move to the next one.

But then once they start to [00:15:00] understand the idea that this is more about exploration and being curious and moving around, then they might eat their favorite foods from one, go to another, eat their favorite foods, and so forth and so on. I also really, really love the licking element. And I was never, before free work, I can’t say that I used lick mats all that much for my dogs.

Because I would notice some level of frustration when it came to, like, if it was a frozen lick mat or it was too difficult or something. We are definitely looking to avoid frustration. So when it comes to the lick, lick mats, I’m essentially teaching the dog to lick calmly, and I’m making sure that there is no frustration.

So that’s one piece of it. So peanut butter, everyone uses peanut butter, but what I’ve noticed is that peanut butter, it’s actually can create a lot of frustration for some dogs, right? Either it gets stuck in their mouth and then they want it out, or it’s just too sticky and they’d rather something that’s easier to lick off.

So [00:16:00] we can play around with different licky things as well, and then all of those can start to apply to our training in the real world. So I personally am a huge fan of bringing snuffle mats or lick mats wherever I go. I know not everyone wants to get quite, do quite that much. But even if it’s as simple as, like you mentioned, the social pressure of feeding a dog with your fingers.

Even if we’re just feeding instead with the palm of our hand and a little bit raised, right? So about the height that their snuffle mat’s gonna be, that’s gonna be more comfortable for them. And it’s gonna, we’re gonna essentially take those good feelings that are coming from the free work, and then using it to feed our dogs.

Or we can, in fact, use snuffle mats or lick mats to feed our dogs in the real world when we’re working on, you know, our behavior protocols or our skills or whatever it might be. And again, we’re kind of taking those concepts with us. And then as far as what treats go, I [00:17:00] do choose a variety as far as textures go.

So I think more about texture than flavor. Ultimately, like some dogs are gonna be picky about the flavor, but I really think that texture it influences our dogs so much. And I think of like our lovely Labradors, right? Who just like gobble anything down. Like- Mm-hmm … if I can get them to slow down with the texture of the food, that’s really gonna benefit them.

And to me, that just seems so much more reinforcing than, you know, gobbling down the treat and then coughing it up and then finishing it, you know? Yeah, there’s so much we can do when it comes to the food.

Jessica: Yeah, I really like the point that you make about texture. And it’s interesting, because I have found the same.

And one dog that I remember taught me this was that I had chicken, like boiled chicken, or it could’ve been canned chicken, I couldn’t remember. Some sort of cooked chicken. And Charlie Bear treats, which are the little crunchy ones that- Yeah … those little, like little crackers you get in clam chowder or [00:18:00] whatever.

And this dog wanted the Charlie Bear over the chicken. And I remember thinking like, “What dog would want that?” Um, and this was- Yeah … years ago, but I remember thinking that. And it’s like, “That is really interesting.” And you are right that the texture often plays a bigger piece in this. And then there’s other dogs who don’t want the crunchy and they want the soft.

Right. So it it’s their individual preference. And so it sounds like you have a couple of different textured treats. Like, you’ve got … something crunchy, maybe something like fresh, would you say? Would it be fresh- Yeah … chicken and then- Yeah. So

Kim: I’ll usually do like cut up some sort of protein, like chicken or pork or, you know, whatever I find on sale at the food store, and I’ll cook that and chop that up.

Right. And then for my personal dogs, so it’s very similar to that dog who preferred the Charlie Bear treats. They eat a raw diet, so kibble and, or Ziwipeak or something, that is, they love it. So I’ll often do like a kibble or something, and then I’ll get maybe [00:19:00] some dehydrated chicken or something along those lines and use that.

My dogs, my personal dogs, aren’t super into like veggies and fruit, unless I mix it into their food. Some of my students, that’s all they use for free work, and it’s amazing. And I love listening to the juicy crunch, too of some of these dogs. But like celery and cucumbers and blueberries, and they’ll just have a whole bunch of different like fruit and veggies, and the dogs love those.

So, you can definitely play around with it. I think having vegetables or something like that is just gonna add a change of varieties for the dog, if they’re open to it, so yeah, you kind of just play around with it and see what works. What I do try to avoid is, you know, again, we don’t wanna create frustration.

So- A few years ago before I learned free work, if I were doing a snuffle mat, I’d get, like, really fine shredded cheese, and I’ll sprinkle that because I’m like, “Oh, that’ll take them forever,” right? [00:20:00] But if you think about it, they probably don’t get all of it up, and so then there’s still the smell, and so they might get frustrated by not being able to find the food.

I don’t know. So I try to avoid anything that’s too small, and too difficult for them to consume.

Jessica: That makes perfect

sense. And that kind of leads me to the licki mat because as soon as you started talking about the licki mat and how we also don’t want them to be frustrated, but we don’t want it to be frozen on there, I remember thinking about this one licki mat that I had used in the past, it had, like, these little tiny rubber bristles on it, I guess is maybe the best way I can describe it. Mm-hmm. And if it was frozen or if it was too difficult to get everything off, then my dog started, ripping these little things off of it. Yeah. So then I’m assuming then the licki mats that you’re using are maybe a little bit smoother, so that way it’s easy to access.

But I’m also curious when you mention not peanut butter, what would be some other suggestions for, like, something that they can lick off of the licki mat?

Kim: As far as surfaces go, I [00:21:00] start with like, a flat target. So like- Yeah … I use a lot of targets for control on leash.

Yeah. So just something flat. And then I’ll use something with, like, maybe a little bit of texture, and I’ll build from there depending on the dog. I have a tendency to just use whatever’s in my house, and sometimes that’s furniture. … Until my husband found out, and he wasn’t too keen on me spreading cream cheese on furniture.

I don’t know why, but uh, so I had to stop that. But my six-year-old collie, Jane, I feed her on a raise station, and I do use a textured lick mat because I find that after she’s finished and she’s just trying to get the end of it, her face looks so zen.

Like, it’s just this calm, consistent licking. It doesn’t look obsessive. It doesn’t look like frustration. So some dogs can definitely benefit from the texture, and I would assume that having different textures, like, on their tongue could help with you know, all the nerve endings and all that.

Like, it’s gotta help. But I [00:22:00] would start with something simple. If my dog is using their teeth or they’re walking away before completing it, that’s when I would say that’s too hard for them. Yeah, and then, gosh, I did have one student, they mentioned that they added something to the peanut butter to make it creamier, and now I can’t recall what it was, but something like that could certainly work.

I like to use yogurt to start or something like that, because it’s very easy for them to lick up and then build up from there. And again, it’s gonna be dog dependent. My dogs do like peanut butter it’s just, it’s not what I would start with for a dog. And I have seen those dogs that they’ll start like licking themselves ’cause they have the peanut butter on their tongue, and I just think that they might not care for that.

Cream cheese or something else sometimes like that’ll be what I’ll move up to. But you can also get creative. We have beehives, so I’ll use honey sometimes, and we’ll do like different… Like baby food canned dog food. So there’s a lot of different things you can play around [00:23:00] with.

And again, you start to figure out what it is that your dog really likes.

Jessica: Okay. That’s really helpful. Lots of great ideas. And you also noted that the height of these things matter. So I have a couple questions about that. My first question is: What height are we aiming for? So we’re putting all of these things down and/or potentially up against on a wall.

So like how high am I supposed to be putting these things, and/or if I put it on a raised surface, how tall should this be?

Kim: Yeah. So I generally start with chest height, and then I’ll adjust from there. Like I said, what I’m looking for is ideally I’m looking for a straight top line, and that’s gonna be breed dependent, that’s gonna be dependent on the individual dog. So some dogs are naturally, if they have a long back or something, they might not get a completely straight top line.

But what you could see sometimes is even if structurally they don’t really have a straight top line, like once you get movement in their body as they get comfortable with this [00:24:00] concept and they start moving around and relaxing, then you start to see every once in a while the back will straighten.

And then it might go back to, say, roaching, but then it’ll straighten again. So their body is starting to find that more comfortable, healthy place. In addition to that, I do use the couch often for my snuffle mats, ’cause it’s the right height for my collies, and I’ll put pillows under the snuffle mat so that it’s angled.

‘Cause what I’m really looking to avoid is some dogs, the way they come to the station, is they’re gonna kind of like really turn their neck a lot and have their nose or their muzzle essentially be perpendicular to the snuffle mat. Mm. I’d rather get an angle because that’s gonna soften their neck a bit.

So I am looking for those kinds of things, and that’s why it is beneficial to work with someone who is, knowledgeable about free work, just to make sure that the dog’s body is looking [00:25:00] okay. And then I’m looking also for that balance of their legs. So if they’re constantly have one leg in front of the other, then that’s letting us know that maybe it needs to be higher or lower.

Naturally dogs have, 60% of their weight is in the front, and sometimes I find that if we can shift some of that weight back, we’re really helping their hips, we’re balancing their rear legs. And so having some sort of, um, small platform in front of the station for their front feet can really help straighten that top line and get some balanced legs.

So there’s so much we can play around with for each individual dog. Ultimately, though, if you want to try this and you want it to be healthy for your dog, you can just take your snuffle mat and put it chest height, and that’s gonna be better than the snuffle mat on the ground. You know, it’s not detrimental that [00:26:00] we get every little thing right.

And really often I’ll watch my dogs and I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, you just, I don’t like how you look right now.” My collie Jane, sometimes she’ll just put her front legs like up on the couch, and like her paws are up and she’s snuffling, and like only her rear is on the ground. And I’m like, “Oh, honey, that’s not what you’re supposed to do.”

But I just let her do it, and then I make a mental note, like, “Okay, next time I have to fix it so that…” Maybe it’s a little too high, and that’s why she felt the need to get up on the couch. I don’t fix it while they’re doing it, I just use that as information to adjust. But they’re dogs. They’re not always gonna hold their bodies the way we want them to.

Jessica: Totally. So one random question about having these things on a raised surface, and then making sure that they don’t slip. ‘Cause so depending on what is on the underside of it, right? I’m thinking of even if you just have a regular bowl and you’re trying to put it on something that’s a bit of a raised surface, but then the dog comes over and they bump it, and then what if it falls and makes the dog nervous?

So what are some [00:27:00] suggestions on what you put it on to make sure that it stays in place

Hey, quick little break here. If you’ve been listening to my podcast, you’ve heard me talk about my leash reactivity mentorship that I have for dog professionals. Well, I didn’t forget about those who aren’t professionals and want help with their own reactive dog. The number one thing I hear from my clients is that they can get their dog to respond to them when there aren’t distractions around, but the moment another dog or trigger appears, everything falls apart.

I wanted to design a course around this very issue so I can help people with reactive dogs learn how to finally get them to respond when it matters most. I’m calling it Reactivity Roadmap, and it’s both an online course and a guided class where you can work with me. It’s launching July 1st, and you can get 20% off on the presale when you join my waitlist, so be sure to check the show notes for the link. Back to the show.

Kim: Yeah. So [00:28:00] I’m very lucky that I have some DIY savvy friends because I’m not all that DIY. I have a friend who makes me, like, just the homemade snuffle mats, and then I’ll buy a foldable stool that you can get, really kind of anywhere for not a lot of money, and then I use a zip tie, and I’ll just attach, ’cause the snuffle mat has, like, essentially holes through it, right, which is where the fabric is tied.

So I’ll just stick the zip tie through it, and that holds it in place on top of the stool, and then after a week or two, I can just cut the zip tie, throw the snuffle mat in the wash and then that works. And I have, like, two heights, two different heights for stools, and if it’s a taller dog, I’ll just put it on a platform or something so I can kind of make adjustments there.

But I find that that’s easiest. I also get, I have some of the snuffle mats that you can get on, Chewy or something, where it’s just a big mat, and those are the ones that I might drape over pillows on my [00:29:00] couch or something like that. And then that’s why, like, smearing food on furniture works so well because it’s it doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t get knocked around.

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. So usually with the lick mats, I’ve found that if I place them in the center of a snuffle mat, that usually prevents them from being pushed around too much, but it’s gonna depend on the individual dog for that. So yeah.

Jessica: Yeah.

But those were easy suggestions. Thank you. And the zip tie, super smart, because you’re right the snuffle mats do have the holes in them. That’d be a very easy way to secure it. Very smart. Okay, I love that. You know, one thing that popped in my head, I think also because I saw this at Sarah Fisher’s presentation at ABK- Mm-hmm

uh, which was the conference last July that was, uh, outside of, uh, outside of London. And she was also making a point about the footing and the flooring, so, and that she had some different rugs, and there were some other [00:30:00] things that she had that I remember her mentioning. And this is really relevant because you are bringing up so many great points about feeding in a position that really supports, the dog using their body properly, which w- I’m gonna put a plug in that ’cause we’re gonna come back to it- Yeah

’cause it’s super important. But let’s also make sure that- I didn’t want to forget about the flooring, because I can hear somebody saying, “Okay, cool, yep, I can put, uh, cream cheese on, on the table leg. I can set this here, set this there.” And now we have a dog that’s on, like, super slick wood floors, and it’s sliding all over the place, and that’s also not really what we’re going for.

Kim: Exactly.

Yeah, so you definitely want some sort of supportive flooring for the dog. So my… Okay, I have a snuffle room. That’s where my dogs- … do their, their free work. And, um, there’s a rug down, ’cause our house is, like, all hardwood floor. So I have a rug there. Also, my house is so mismatched with so many different rugs and carpets for my dogs.

So [00:31:00] having anything down, it could be a yoga mat. You know, when I use a platform, I’m gonna use something like a Cato board or something that has some sort of texture for the dog. The more we can give them support, the better. Some of my students really, you know, it’s hard for them to do that, so we might just do, on one side of the station, there’s, like, a yoga mat or something.

So at least the dog can choose that. And often I find the dogs, that’s what they choose, ’cause that’s what they prefer. But really, there’s a lot of stores where you can find inexpensive, just cuts of, of rug or something, um, that you can use for the free work. So you can definitely get creative.

Even, like, HomeGoods or something. There’s so many of those now, like the rugs to help give you support in the kitchen and stuff yeah. All of that would help.

Jessica: Exactly.

There’s a ton out there. I know because I’ve shopped many times for my dog. And I have a… my dog that I have right now, he needs a lot of secure footing underneath himself because he’s got some different physical limitations, [00:32:00] and I’m trying to prevent a surgery down the road- Mm-hmm

on his knees. And so yeah, HomeGoods is a great one. Thrift stores is another one. Yeah. Um, big fan of going to thrift stores and seeing what they have available. Costco, if, I mean, Costco’s Costco. They’ve got often some really great ones. And, you know, um, Aldi is another place that I found. Yeah. There’s more and more Aldis, which I’m kind of like partial to that store.

I like love Aldis. And I’m kind of surprised where they’re popping up nowadays. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, there’s an Aldis here.” But they often have at least one aisle with different home good type things, and often- Oh, okay … super super cheap. . So I found some good ones at Aldis too. So that’s another place for people to look. Yeah. Um, I know that I’ve talked about flooring and why it’s important in other podcasts, but it’s worth mentioning again in case we have a listener- All the time.

Yes. Exactly. Hear I talk about flooring. There’s a reason why dog trainers have rugs all over their floors. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it’s because when [00:33:00] your dog does not have secure footing, it leads to a lot of health issues, and a lot of structural issues over time as well. And I wish, like really, really wish I’d known more about this many, many years ago when I had, you know, my first dogs, because I think I probably could have helped one of them

Who had actually really bad hip dysplasia that I had no idea about because she was one who masked her pain really well. Yeah. And I think I probably could have helped her mobility a lot in her later years, which I think she was seven when she first got diagnosed, but I had her until she was 12, so I have five years of her life that I think I probably could have made a greater impact on, A, had I known that this was so important before she was seven, you know, between the, the six years I had her before then, but then certainly, B, the last five years that I had her, it would’ve been really helpful for even just her quality of life perspective- Absolutely

that your dog needs to feel comfortable just moving around their own home.

Kim: Yeah. Yeah. And [00:34:00] along those lines, the nice thing about free work is we do start to, like we can use different textures and stuff so that our dogs start to, again, it gets like the nerve endings going and, it creates this like variety for them, but it also gives them that practice of moving on different footing.

And that doesn’t mean I think we should put them on slippery footing to practice, ’cause I am all for having a house full of mismatched rugs. But it does allow them to, even if we have a platform that they can step up on or something like that, it just builds body awareness and confidence in how they can move, and then that is gonna support them in situations when perhaps the footing isn’t ideal.

Jessica: Yeah.

You know, as you were talking, I was thinking in my mind that you’re right, doing this sort of stuff with different types of surfaces can be very helpful for dogs that, you know, nervous about stepping on different things. And there’s [00:35:00] some really easy ones, like those bath mats that have, like, the really fluffy- Yeah

fibers in it that some dogs might put one foot on and be like, “Oh, that feels really weird to me.” And I think one of the reasons why free work works so well is because it’s really up to the dog. There’s no human there trying to ask them to go on these things, it’s just up to the dog, and whenever they’re ready for that, to feel like they want to walk on those surfaces.

Kim: Yeah.

And if you notice that the dog is avoiding certain surfaces, well, then you can start to figure out, well, why would my dog avoid that, or what’s making them uncomfortable with that? So that gives you information also.

Jessica: It does.

I’m kind of curious about this piece here. If somebody was doing free work and later wanted to add different surfaces, ’cause I’m imagining that were not gonna start with it, because you’re first just trying to get the dog understanding the concept, feeling good about it, you’re gathering some information as time goes on.

Kim: But [00:36:00] they don’t have to interact with it in order to earn food.

And one of the things that I guess I haven’t mentioned yet is we can also incorporate, like, chew things into the, or even toys, into the setup. Because more than anything, I find that chew things- Some dogs will take a break halfway through to, like, chew on something. Others will choose it at the very end.

Um, and some will just ignore it. They just don’t care to chew while there’s food there. But what I really find interesting is when often when the dogs have a chew thing, they’ll bring it to a certain spot. I’ve even seen dogs bring it to a station and, like, put it up on the station, which is remarkable to me, right?

So, the dog is thinking, “It’s more comfortable to chew with my head high.” But also, if we were to put a rug down and our dog likes to chew, that could be a good opportunity for the dog to say, “Okay, I’m gonna chew on this. I’m gonna go lie on this rug to do that.” Because, you know, often we see dogs choose rugs and such for chewing.

[00:37:00] So, we could incorporate something like that, too. I also, I have one of my FDSA students, Oh, gosh, I just love her dog. She has this border collie, if he took a toy, he would chew on it like it was a very squeaky toy, and then just avoid her. He was done training.

He wouldn’t let her get the toy. It was just kind of like a, not even a keep away thing because she knew better, but just like, “Okay, I’m gonna go do this thing on my own.” And what he started to do was, she accidentally had the toy out during one of her free work sessions, and he went and got it, and then he brought it to a station, and then started, like, snuffling, and then would chew on it.

And then when she walked over to approach, he asked her to take the toy, and then they interacted with the toy together. So you know, w- we don’t necessarily just have to incorporate, like, textures and stuff to this. We can incorporate a lot of different things. Again, as long as we’re not using coercion.

So, I know I went off on a little tangent there, but I just love that border collie and his, his toy [00:38:00] on his station. It’s just adorable.

Jessica: Yeah. I love that, too.

And I think what I’m hearing of the things that you’re describing, and then also with the border collie, that story, is that if we think about what the dog is experiencing when they’re doing free work, essentially they’re getting a lot of free access to food and things that they really like that often has a contingency attached to it in other circumstances.

And the fact that None of that is attached, and they can, you know, move around freely, do… it’s like, wow, look at all these things that I just, I, I just get to have all these things at the speed in which I want to acquire and consume- Mm-hmm … you know, these things. Like, it’s r- it’s all up to me. You know, how, how often do we do that?

Because even for those of us who are doing things like other enrichment items, like let’s put it in a Kong, [00:39:00] right? We’re not saying that there’s something wrong with Kongs, we’re just saying that the dog has to work harder to access the thing. Yeah. And so the fact that they’re able to have it be more readily accessible to them is something that if you think about it, I don’t know that there’s really any other really common scenario in which we give our dog something like that in their life.

If I’m really, like, sitting and thinking about this right now, which is probably why this is so powerful when you start to actually do this with dogs.

Kim: Yeah.

I absolutely agree. You know, I’m able to, where I live, I can take my dogs on off-leash hikes and, like, decompression walks, but even then, I still have to control situations, if we see other dogs coming or something like that.

With this, you set it up in a safe place. It’s entirely the dog can do whatever they want without us interfering, and it is so empowering for dogs. It really is. It, it’s quite amazing to see. [00:40:00] And then to think for them to have then that activity that they could do on, a daily basis or even a couple times a week, that empowerment is going to then, follow them in different parts of their lives.

So yeah, it, it’s pretty remarkable.

Jessica: It is. I want to circle back to helping dogs develop more proper form. Mm-hmm. And kind of just where that can be helpful, but then also- Actually noticing that the dog doesn’t have proper form, because this is also where this is so valuable, right?

To be able to be like, ooh, I can actually observe my dog moving around, like very naturally, right? Because they’re- Mm-hmm … not attached to a lead. You’re not walking them out or, trotting them out. Like, they are moving around very naturally, so there’s really no input from anything, and that’s also where that can be so useful.

Kim: Yeah, sure. So I find that, so for me personally, by going through the ACE program, so I’ve gone through all five [00:41:00] modules, and it really, a lot of it is learning that observation and about the dog’s body. I felt like it was a lot like, I remember back when I first learned about, calming signals, right?

And it’s like suddenly you see dogs yawning everywhere, right? And then as you become more skilled, you start to see the nuances, and you start to pick up on the little things. So I think at this point, I’m at the point where I can see those little nuances. A lot of the dogs’ guardians aren’t seeing that yet.

So it does take sometimes a certain eye for that, and I, I truly think if you have a supportive veterinarian, you could bring a video of your dog doing free work, and they could potentially see those things. So it’s very useful in that sense. I’ve even had a couple of my FDSA students where or one in particular where I reached out to her and I said, I think you need to get your dog evaluated.”

And she did, [00:42:00] and it was, it was a good thing that she did. So, um, you can see some, some big things there. As far as, like, a dog with say hip dysplasia or something or, you’re trying to avoid injuries, What free work allows you to do is notice any patterns. If you start to notice that your dog is walking different and moving differently.

Um, but it also builds those little muscles and loosens the fascia, and it’s really useful for the body to have those little movements. Even like, you know, I said putting their feet up on the platform and weight shifting back. Even something like that, if they do it over time, we’re gonna see their body start to develop.

Not in the way as if we were to do a fitness program with our dogs or something like that, but in little ways. And I notice like with my dog Jane, she’s a long-backed dog, and she’s… So she has a sway back, so it, it kind of dips. [00:43:00] And I always know when I’ve been slacking on setting up free work for them because it starts to dip more.

And if she’s doing it daily, her top line builds up and it’s nice and straight. So it makes a significant difference on her body. Ultimately, you know because you’re in behavior, pain and discomfort can really influence our dog’s behavior. And often by noticing those things early on, we can then take care of whatever the discomfort is, and then it essentially now our dog is doing free work, they have less pain or discomfort, and then we start to see those, you know, the reactivity or whatever it is starts to diminish or go away.

Um, so it does allow us the opportunity to do that. I’ve really enjoyed that piece of learning and discovering our dogs’ bodies and starting to pick up on the little nuances that are indicating that something is going on. [00:44:00] So yeah. Did that answer your question?

Jessica: It did.

And maybe we could give a couple of examples of some things to look for.

‘Cause you did mention earlier about the way that their weight is shifted. Mm-hmm. And I think many people don’t think that’s relevant, but I also think that it’s one of the more obvious things to look for. That once you- Yes … start looking, it is more obvious. Mm-hmm. Because some of these signs are really, really nuanced, they’re very small, and so I’m guessing that one thing that we can look at is if they are- eating. We’ll say, actually we’ll give the example of if you had, um, something, a little licky thing on,

you know, the leg of the chair. That if your dog is licking something off of it and you happen to look at their back end, and you notice that there’s just the slightest bit of where your dog happens to be carrying a little bit more of his weight on the right versus the left then [00:45:00] that might tell you something.

We don’t know exactly what it’s gonna tell you- Mm-hmm … but it can just tell you that your dog shifts his weight in this way. And then of course if you see it happening as they are moving around or doing other things, then that’s where it can become relevant. I’m also thinking that if somebody’s really trying to look at these things and with their dog, that setting up a little tripod and videoing their dog

Kim: Oh, yeah yeah, absolutely. I guess I just assume that everyone is like me and just videotapes everything their dogs do. But- Right? Same but yes. So for me personally if I’m watching a video of free work, which is how I evaluate it because I teach free work online often I’ll go I’ll watch it in slow motion.

And, and that’s if I find something that looks interesting to me. I’m not watching, like, a 10-minute video in slow motion, but if there’s, like, a movement or something where I’m like, “Where, what is that?” I’ll do that. I’ll also take screenshots of a dog, and if we have the [00:46:00] same setup over a course of a couple weeks I’ll do a screenshot of how that progression might look.

So I’ll do that also. And sometimes even fast motion will change the picture just enough where you can start to catch things. And what you are looking for is, yeah, let’s say they’re consistently keeping their left- leg in front of their right leg.

So that tells me that there’s some sort of weight shift, or there’s some sort of compensation. Sometimes with a dog that doesn’t have a lot of coat, we can actually see a difference in the muscle tone. Um, so they might have more muscle on one side than the other. Um, I also look for, like with licking, is my dog only turning their head one way and not the other?

Okay, so then that would might maybe indicate something’s going on with their neck. I also watch the tail and how it balances the dog. Even if you have a dog with a small tail or whatever, you can watch the base of their tail. But for one, I’m looking for a low relaxed tail, because [00:47:00] that means my dog is calm.

If my dog’s tail is up over his back and it’s not normally, then that means that maybe it’s too exciting for it. But I’m also looking for if the tail is constantly tucked, often that means there’s a lot of tension, okay, um, in the body. It could also be stress, but ideally we’re setting this up so that it, there isn’t actually emotional stress.

So I notice like tension in the abdomen or tension in the hips or the back, that’s gonna cause that tuck of the tail. Or if the tail’s always kind of, you know, tight to one side or the other, then it may be trying to balance the dog’s body a little bit. And another really interesting thing that you can look for is the hair how the hair’s growing, and if there’s any little cowlicks or something, or changes in the dog’s coat pattern.

Often that indicates like tight muscles or tight fascia. So the fascia is like the I’m not gonna get too detailed, but kind of think of it as like the layer right under the skin, and [00:48:00] that can get really tight for some dogs. And if that’s tight, that might make the hair stick up more, whereas the rest of the coat is relaxed.

So, I am always checking my dogs, like if there’s some sort of little cowlick or something, that tells me that there might be something going on there. Of course, some of our dogs just, I have a mini poodle. He’s got like curls and cowlicks everywhere, so I don’t really look at him so much for that. But, um, that’s definitely, or change in coat pattern can often tell us that something is going on,

Jessica: I love that. Lots of great examples of what to look for. And I really, really love how you mentioned making everything the same for a few weeks, so repeating the same setup. Because then it’s easier to measure any changes, right? Because if you’re changing the setup the whole time, then it’s a little bit harder to see those changes.

So that’s super smart. Another thing I wanted to dive into was how you were mentioning that you could take some of this on the road, so to speak. [00:49:00] Um, meaning like the licky mats or the snuffle mats. And- It makes a lot of sense that you would eventually use some of these pieces elsewhere because the dogs have spent a lot of time being conditioned, because you’re using those to hold the food in, and then therefore they are associating a lot of how they’re feeling as they’re, as they’re eating the food from that.

And then eventually you’re presenting this in another environment. So I’m curious how you use these elements in another context or, uh, away from the home even.

Kim: Yeah. So you can set up an entire free work session for your dog outside of the home. So if I’m traveling for a dog show, I usually bring, like, a couple raised snuffle mats and some lick mats.

And, you know, if I’m in an Airbnb, I might set that up before I bring the dogs in, and then when they come in, they’ve got that free work that they can kind of engage in while they’re exploring the house or something. [00:50:00] A lot of my students eventually use it outside, so in their yard. And when we do that, we don’t wanna do, like, okay, you’ve been in this room in the house, and you’ve been doing free work for three weeks, and now I’m gonna just take all of this and put it outside, because that’s a big change.

So- We can use satellite stations to start moving the dog, and a satellite station would just be one single station. So let’s say I’ve got, you know, my station set up in the kitchen, and then I’m gonna put one near the back door. Okay? So then my dog starts to, you know, we’re starting to bring free work over in that direction.

And then maybe next session I’ll have the back door open, but with the screen closed. And I’m just looking for changes. So if my dog is suddenly, you know, their tail’s higher, they’re eating faster, then they might be saying that’s too hard. But if they seem relaxed, then I’ll keep progressing the session until we’re outside.

And then I [00:51:00] also, because I do control on leash, I’m often doing patterns and I’m using targets for that. And so I’ll just use a free work station as a target, and that way my dog is getting the benefit of snuffling and, taking their time, you know, exploring, activating their seeking system while in that pattern.

So there’s a lot of ways we can incorporate it into training. I have students who will bring a raise station to a trial or to class with their dog. Um, right now I’ve got one of my students, she’s taking her dog to class, and she just brings a couple free work stations, and he can choose to do free work at any point in class.

So it’s essentially his opportunity to say, “Okay, I need a break. I’m gonna go do this w- you know, this thing that makes me happy.” So what I love so much about free work is that there are so many opportunities to expand on it, and that’s something I’ve really appreciated [00:52:00] with Sarah, is that she just encouraged that.

She was, whenever I mention something, she’s just like, “Try it.” There’s just so much we can do. So, um, like I’ve been using it as opt-out stations. I’ve been using it for dog-dog interactions. Like, the sky’s the limit really.

Jessica: Love that. It’s so helpful to condition those things at home first and where the dog- Mm-hmm

feels safe, and then translate them to other environments. It’s similar to some other things that I do with reactive dogs, which is, or even when we think about mat work, you know, when we- Yeah. Yeah … are teaching dogs to hang out on a mat, you know, good stuff happens when they’re there, and then you present it somewhere else.

You know, the reason why it’s so powerful is because there’s a visual component to it. It’s a, it’s a thing. It’s a physical thing that the dog has associated. But if you do it correctly and you’ve conditioned it properly, it does make it easier to translate behaviors and I always like to think about, like, how can we bring the familiar to unfamiliar environment?

[00:53:00] Yeah. Because what I’ve seen is that dogs tend to acclimate faster they appear more relaxed, you know, when they’re like, “Oh, I know what that is.” And now it just happens to be in this environment that I don’t know as well. And I feel like that’s a more efficient way to translate other things, and even translate, their training as well.

Kim: Yeah,

definitely. But, at the same time, if someone were to just keep free work as an activity that the dog does at home- Yeah … and doesn’t expand on that, that’s gonna be beneficial for the dog, too. So it’s not something we have to expand on, it’s just something we can expand on.

Jessica: Yeah. Is there anything about free work that we didn’t touch on that you think is really important?

Kim: Let’s see. I guess something, one thing to add would be I do think it’s, it’s not for a particular dog. It’s for any dog. So a puppy, a senior dog it’s not pigeonholed for [00:54:00] any situation. Shelter dogs. There’s just so much, every dog would benefit from it.

 I’m probably gonna, like, when we’re finished think of like- … “Oh, I should have said this.” But, but we did cover a lot of the bases, so.

Jessica: As we were talking, I was thinking, like, wow, th- there’s so much more to this than what you might see in a quick video that someone’s showing, or a quick blog post or whatever.

Yeah, there’s, there’s certainly a lot more layers to this, so I’m really glad that we were able to have the conversation and dive into, to all of the details.

 Sarah Fisher was the one who started this, and I know she had a really, really big impact on a lot of people’s lives, and therefore dogs’ lives, right?

 And Sarah’s no longer with us, yeah, and but I know that there’s a lot of people who are still gonna want to learn about this, and fortunately, there’s people like you who are still out there.

Jessica: Uh, was one of the reasons why I wanted to have you come on, so [00:55:00] we could have this conversation- Mm-hmm … ’cause, and more people can hear about it. Where can people go if they want to learn more, or even if there’s a trainer who wants to perhaps be a practitioner? Do you know if that is still gonna be available to them?

Kim: Yeah, it is. So, um, Sarah Fisher was very close with Sarah Withan. Uh, and I actually worked with Sarah Withan quite a lot, and she did a lot of the teaching as well. And she is continuing ACE. So, and there’s a, a committee that’s continuing ACE as well. So it’s gonna take some time to just go through all the details and, and get things you know, not everything is on the schedule and stuff, but, like, it’s still happening.

There are still classes happening, so, um, just going onto the Animal Centered Education website can get you a lot of information. And Sarah Fisher has [00:56:00] so much content, and that’s still there, and that’s stuff that, you know, people can still learn from. She does a lot of, she did a lot of, uh, lecturing during the modules, and those are all recorded.

So we can still learn a lot from Sarah Fisher, and I think Sarah Withan is, like, the perfect person to continue it. So there’s still lots of opportunities to learn, and then there are the ACE practitioners who are teaching individual classes, I don’t think the ACE website is updated with everyone’s information.

Like, I’m not sure if I’m listed there. But I can certainly be found, you know, on Facebook or my website, and, um, I teach through Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, and privately also. So, I love teaching free work, and so I’m definitely … I can’t get someone certified, but I can certainly give them a lot of information on how to incorporate it, whether it’s someone who wants to do it just with [00:57:00] their own dog, or a trainer who’s looking to incorporate it into what they do.

So there are still lots of learning opportunities. I think that was important for Sarah Fischer to make sure that it was gonna continue and, and, you know, she has so many people that she supported, and now they’re supporting the program and they’ll keep growing it and yeah, it’s not going anywhere.

Amazing. Yeah. That’s wonderful. And I will make sure that I have all the links in the show notes, so that way people know- Perfect … exactly where to go, um, and, and where to find you, and so forth. So- Thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and chatting about this, Kim. It’s, uh, something that when I think about reactive dogs and all the different ways that we can help them, th- there’s so many things, right, that people- There are, yes.

So many, so many things people can do, so many different ways that that people can help their dogs. But I think one of the things that I really loved about this is that it’s something that somebody could do [00:58:00] in their home, which for a lot of reactive dogs who maybe aren’t going out as often, it’s such a simple thing- Yeah

to just incorporate into their home routine. And, uh, and it also has so many benefits. So I think that listeners are gonna find this really helpful, so thank you.

I hope so.

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