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If you have a reactive dog and you’re out in the real world with them, it might feel like you are walking through a minefield. You have to keep track of and account for so many things – yourself, your dog, and whatever is going on in the environment. 

In today’s episode, I wanted to talk about the skills that handlers of reactive dogs need to be building, to be able to guide their dogs through the real world more successfully. And to have this conversation I wanted to bring in Dan Clark, a colleague and fellow behavior consultant. Dan takes a lot of leash reactivity cases and spends a lot of time with his clients out in the real world, helping them build their confidence and learn how to navigate a wide range of scenarios. 

We discuss:

•  Situational awareness and how to set your dog up for success
• The importance of body positioning so your dog can respond more easily to you
• How to work with your dog if they are over threshold
• How to build your dog’s attention and training in a new environment
• And more!

About Dan:

Dan Clark is the Founder and Co-Owner of Out of the Bark, a dog training and behavior consulting company based in the San Francisco Bay Area. He is a Certified Dog Behavior Consultant (CDBC) through the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants and a Karen Pryor Academy Certified Training Partner (KPA-CTP), with over eight years of professional experience and more than a decade of hands-on work with dogs.

Dan’s work is deeply shaped by his journey with his own reactive dog, Jax. After experiencing firsthand the limitations and fallout of punitive training methods, Dan shifted his approach toward science-based, trust-centered behavior modification. That experience led him to pursue formal education in animal behavior, volunteer with shelters, and dedicate his career to helping dogs struggling with fear, anxiety, and aggression.

Dan specializes in complex behavior cases, including reactivity, aggression, and dogs with bite histories. His approach emphasizes situational awareness, environmental management, handler advocacy, and building skills that translate to real-world environments. He is known for his calm, practical guidance and his ability to help owners understand not just what to do, but why it works.

Through his work, Dan focuses on empowering dog owners to advocate for their dogs, prioritize emotional safety, and build lasting trust that supports meaningful, long-term behavior change.

Links:

www.outofthebark.com – For in person consults and training. Zoom consulting and training is also offered for individuals outside of our service area.

Instagram: @outofthebark

Leash reactive workshop for pet parents: https://bigfeelingsclub.eventbrite.com

Transcript

Speaker 2: [00:00:00] I am Jessica Wheatcraft, and this is Rethinking Reactivity, A podcast designed to educate, empower, and equip the modern handler of reactive dogs. Whether you have a reactive dog or you help people with their reactive dogs, you’re in the right place.

Jessica: If you have a reactive dog and you’re out in the real world with them, it probably feels like you’re walking through a minefield. You never know when something is going to appear or how your dog is going to react. You have to keep track of and account for so many things yourself, your dog, and whatever is going on in the environment.

It’s hard to know exactly what to do in any given scenario because they’re often so different. In today’s episode, I wanted to talk about the skills that handlers of reactive dogs need to be [00:01:00] building to be able to guide their dogs through the real world more successfully. And to have this conversation, I wanted to bring in Dan Clark, a friend, a colleague, and fellow behavior consultant.

Dan works with a lot of leash reactivity cases and spends a lot of his time with his clients out in the real world, helping them build their confidence and learn how to navigate a wide range of scenarios. Together we discuss the very things we teach our clients. And we’re going to talk about things like situational awareness, how to position your body so that your dog can respond more easily to you.

How to work with your dog, even if they’re over threshold, and how to build your dog’s skillset in a new environment. We have a lot of practical applications in today’s episode that you’ll be able to walk away with. Before we jump in, I wanted to note that today is January [00:02:00] 15th, and the next cohort for my leash reactivity mentorship for professionals begins March 15th.

Now, that’s two months away, but spots fill quickly, so be sure to get on the wait list to be the first to know when registration opens and check the show notes for the link. Okay, let’s dive in.

 All right. Well Dan, welcome to the show. I am happy that you’re here.

Dan: Thank you. I’m honored to be here and really excited to have this discussion.

Jessica: Same here. Same here. So we’re gonna talk about the human end of leash reactivity cases today, and that’s something that I’ve talked a little bit on some other episodes about that. But I think today I really wanted to dive into the skills that people who have reactive dogs really need to learn.

And you and I both do a lot of coaching with people who have dogs that are reactive on leash or dogs who are exhibiting some [00:03:00] really challenging behaviors. And I know we both know that coaching the human is one of the bigger parts of our jobs. We certainly are trying trying to change the dog’s behavior as well.

But so much of this is also people coaching and I’m glad that you’re here because I think that we can have some of our listeners come away with some really good strategies of skills that they can either strengthen or start building if they haven’t yet.

Dan: Yeah, absolutely.

 One of the things that I wanna start with is the concept of situational awareness, which if somebody’s listening and they don’t know what situational awareness is essentially it is the ability to be aware of what’s going on around you and then to also respond accordingly.

Jessica: So it could look like many different things, right? But I think, okay, so how many times have we been out with a [00:04:00] client and they freeze when their dog notices something or they have another direction or another way that they could navigate the environment and then they just choose not to. And for us as trainers, like we see this unfolding and we think, well, this is so obvious.

We could just go do this instead. But it doesn’t come naturally to most people to be able to have that awareness about their environment and then at the same time try to pay attention to their dog. So I think we’re asking our human clients to pay attention to a lot, and I think that’s why they have a really hard time with their dogs out and about.

Dan: Yeah, a hundred percent. And you know, like going back to your situational awareness and defining what that is, I think that’s a great place to start. And for me personally, I look at that as basically environmental management. And the, the main goal of that management is [00:05:00] to prevent the rehearsal of the undesired behavior.

Because we know that every time our dog rehearses those behaviors it’s digging deeper neuro pathways into their brain and making it more likely for them to behave the same way in similar settings. So everything kind of trickles down from that. Essentially you’re trying to safeguard the training that you’re doing by preventing those reactions or being able to manage those reactions by finding ways to work through those situations.

Jessica: Yeah. I like how you’re describing that as environmental management. Uh, ’cause you’re right, it is the reason why you want to have situational awareness is so that you can manage your dog while you’re out and about. Like the whole idea is to pay attention to what’s going on around you, and then very quickly be able to assess, can my dog handle this or can they not?

And if we think that they cannot handle it, then what do we do next?

A hundred percent [00:06:00] right? And so

that, again, like why I wanna dive into lots of different strategies that people could do here. But again, that’s why it’s so hard for our clients, right? It’s such a tall order to ask of somebody to be able to know what to do in all of these scenarios.

And I think that’s also why our clients get so stuck, um, or so frustrated because. They’re having to think really quickly on their feet, and then they’re having to change strategies a lot, and there’s never any sort of really straightforward, always do this right. It always has to change depending on what they’re coming across.

Dan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think when we really look at reactive dogs each dog is gonna be on a different part of their journey. And so the environment that you’re working with or in is gonna be different for what dog to the next. And it really depends on what our objectives are on going [00:07:00] outside the home.

You know, we could start with like a dog that maybe is just learning to build some new skills. And we may be advising our clients to practice in places like business parks, after hours cemeteries, open parking lots places where they’re not gonna see a lot of distractions, a lot of people or a lot of other dogs where we’re able to really start honing in and building these skills that we’re gonna need when we’re actually in a normal day to day environment.

Um. So we could be working with a level of those dogs. We could have dogs where maybe we’ve accomplished some of those skills and now we’re doing integration into kind of our residential streets. Um, we’re gonna start with places where we have better escape routes and where the intensity wouldn’t be overwhelming for that dog.

And then you would also have dogs that are maybe on more of a maintenance phase. And so that means that we’ve kind of accomplished a lot of these objectives and we’ve gone out to many different [00:08:00] environments and we’ve been able to be successful and now it just looks like we’re going through the neighborhood and we need to keep our dogs feeling comfortable and safe.

Jessica: I like how you put that in those three different buckets. ’cause you’re right, there’s dogs that are very new to this sort of skill building and why they need to be in different environments and not all of them, right, but many of them, you know, do require to be in a different environment in order to build those skills more effectively.

And then there’s the dogs who are a little further along. So let’s talk then a little bit more about why the environment is so impactful for these dogs and. Also to help our clients who might struggle with the idea of having to do field trips with their dogs or having their dogs walk somewhere else or be exercised somewhere else.

Because we are asking our clients to put a little bit more effort into something that they’re probably [00:09:00] already putting a lot of effort into. Right? Yeah. Uh, they’re already living with this reactive dog. It’s already a lot for them. And then on top of it, we’re saying, Hey, now let’s also have you go here, here and here.

So I wanna talk maybe a little bit more about why that’s important. You know, earlier you mentioned the having them not rehearse the behavior. That’s a, a big one, right? We’re trying to help the dog and the human have almost a different impression of their time outside. Yeah. And one of the ways that you can change their impression is also by.

Practicing some of these newer skills and also having them be practiced in a different environment than the one that they’ve been rehearsing a lot of their old behaviors in. And even just that contextual change can have a big impact on the dog’s behavior right. Haven’t you seen that with your clients where you do a field trip with them and then you see a whole nother side to this dog?

And it might [00:10:00] even be surprising to us just the changes of what we see with their behavior.

Dan: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s, uh, a big part when we’re work kicking with reactive dogs is the predictability factor. And we do want predictability. We just want good predictability. We want, uh, the trigger to predict, escape, or moving towards the handler or moving away from the thing that maybe the dog is concerned about or predicts a bunch of food falling from the sky or a tug toy being presented.

You know, uh, we’re trying to pair these situations where it’s predicting something really pleasant for the dog so we can kind of build on that association. The problem is, is most people that come to us, the environments that they’re working in, has already created the behavioral patterns that they’re experiencing.

And so what that means is that. Many of these dog owners are probably walking down the street [00:11:00] and their dog reacted and or had a reaction on a certain location on that walk, and maybe it was they were walking by a fence and a dog rushed up to that fence and lunged and barked and, and scared that dog.

Right. Um, so now that dog in particular, is starting to predict scary things when they’re approaching this house. And that will cause the dogs to start behaving in ways that. Are falling on the negative emotional spectrum where we’re trying to change those feelings.

They’re instead preparing for fight. They’re preparing to defend themselves. And that’s the biggest thing is we really don’t want our dogs having or experiencing those feelings. We want them to feel much more relaxed and confident and secure and kind of knowing what they can do to make them feel more comfortable in those situations.

Jessica: Yeah. I’m glad that you brought that up, because they are associating those experiences with those specific environments. And then also [00:12:00] if you go further down the specificity line of like a very specific corner house with the dog that’s barking from the other side.

So the dog anticipates, right? It’s predictable, but not in the way that you want it to be predictable, right? This dog knows when I round the corner it’s very high likely that this dog is gonna be barking at me from their fence. Um, so there’s a level of predictability there that we kind of don’t want the dog to have.

So I wanna kind of circle this back to the human end because I know we’re talking about the dogs, right? One of the bigger reasons why I also have my clients start to build their skillset in a quieter environment is so that they themselves can start to.

Feel more relaxed when they’re with their dog and rehearse some of these new skills in a way that I know they will be more successful at. Yeah, and I think that is something where the human end of the leash here, so much of how their dog responds, has to do [00:13:00] with their decision making. And it’s really difficult for a person to make decisions when they themselves are under a lot of stress or there’s a lot of things that are in the environment that is too much for them to pay attention to.

So part of the other reason why we start with our clients, a lot of our clients, we’re not saying everybody here, but a lot of our clients, you know, we start smaller, is because we want to help them build their skillset too. It’s not just the dog.

Dan: Yeah, absolutely. We wanna prevent the owners from feeling frustrated, anxious and ultimately like unhappy with the, the training process, you know?

And so just like how we make the process and we set the stage to make it easier for the dogs to be successful, we want to do that for the clients as well because they are, they’re having to learn a whole source of information in a short amount of time and to develop those [00:14:00] skills. And we’re really asking a lot from those people.

Jessica: Yeah. So let’s talk about some of the skills that we do teach them. So I’ll throw an example out. So one of the things that I like to teach my clients is to look for ways that they can give their dog more space from other things. And what’s really interesting I think with just us humans in general, whenever we go out in public, is that we have designated walkways that we walk on, right?

Even if you go to a park, there’s gonna be a pathway in that park, and that’s where most people are gonna walk on that pathway. And that’s because that’s the way that we’ve designed our communities. And this is really what we’ve been socialized to, is people that like, well, we walk here and from the dog’s perspective, I think they don’t understand why we always have to walk only there.

When you have all of this other space available to you and. I think along those lines I’m often coaching my clients [00:15:00] just veer off the pathway because I think sometimes that they don’t think it’s something that is an option to them when it totally is

so that way you can either U around something or give your dog a little bit more space from something. I tend to see that that’s a really common one of getting really stuck of staying on a pathway and not looking around to see is there anything right off this pathway that I could step onto and give my dog a little bit more space from something else that we’re coming across.

Dan: Yeah, absolutely. It is pretty funny that you mentioned like the path that we kind of all are socially conditioned to follow versus just walking off. But I think a big part about like just going back to the beginning, it’s all about managing our dog’s reactions. And so we have to know what our dog is capable of doing in any given situation.

And if they do end up barking or reacting, that’s okay. It just gives us more information for [00:16:00] future setups. So I don’t want to feel defeated if my dog does have those reactions. I just want to be able to kind of learn from those experiences. So one of the things that we really need to identify is like thresholds in that situation and being able to determine, how far away that trigger is gonna be, where my dog is gonna feel comfortable enough to navigate that environment.

Whether we’re talking about the proximity or the arousal level those are all gonna factor into where we’re gonna be able to walk. And so in addition to really understanding our dog better, it’s about understanding the environment better. And so one of the things like over the last week, knowing that we were gonna sit down and have this talk, I noticed I just kind of picked up on the things that I was looking for when I’m walking my dog through the neighborhood.

Because I feel like those are experiences that I’ve probably learned from and that other people can learn from, from [00:17:00] me talking about it versus having to live through those experiences. So just for me, like if I’m walking down the street and I see a garage door open, that’s a red flag for me.

If I’m on the same side of the street and I see a garage door open. I already know that there’s a good chance that there could be a dog in that garage and it could be off leash. And so I am not going to walk directly in front of that driveway. If anything, I’m gonna flip my dog to the other side of my body, so they’re on the outside and I’m probably going to go into the street halfway into the street, if not crossing the street depending on the particular dog that I’m working with.

Um, so that’s like a prime example. I’ve been rushed many times through open garage doors even like front doors as well. People that have gated front yards where people leave their dog off leash in the front yard, like those are all situations that I’m scanning and looking for. If I have dogs that maybe [00:18:00] feel more uncomfortable with like humans then I’m looking for delivery trucks.

And if they’re on the same side of the street, I’m gonna cross. You know, or if I see RVs parked up along the sidewalk that like a lot of people that are traveling often have dogs with them and people will often leave their dogs out and the dogs can just run right out of the RV as well. So those are all kind of things that I’m constantly looking for to give myself like notice, so I’m not caught into a situation that I could have prevented.

So I think those are all really important aspects of being able to educate reactive dog owners on what they need to do and what they need to be looking for to keep their dogs feeling safe and comfortable.

Jessica: Yeah, those are some great examples. And like you said, it’s just things that you have to be aware of.

I think there’s a difference between. Being aware of things, right? Like you’re walking, you’re just [00:19:00] taking in your environment you’re aware of what you’re seeing and then being really worried in the environment, right? I think if somebody is listening to this, they might think, well, that sounds almost like the human is being hypervigilant, which we know we have some clients that are that way, right?

They have had so many bad experiences with their own dog that they themselves are hypervigilant and they are doing things like tightening up on the dog’s leash without realizing it. It’s just a habit that they don’t even know that they’re doing, or they start breathing really quickly, or they start talking really fast, or they just do things that indicate to the dogs something bad is about to happen because my human is starting to act like this.

And so I think there’s a difference between that, and that’s really what you and I are, are talking about, is that there’s a difference between going out with your dog. And being prepared to be aware and also advocate for your dog in the sense of you are going to try to avoid scenarios, right? That there might be a loose [00:20:00] dog because we don’t have control over it.

For example, today I was walking my dog and I saw a French bulldog walking towards me and it was being walked by a child. My dog does not like French Bulldogs, I can tell you that right now. So I’m not going to get close enough to the French bulldog because I know that he just doesn’t like that breed.

And it’s a child that’s walking this dog and the child’s completely unattended. So I don’t want the dog to get away from the kid and rush up to mine or do whatever, but I just cross the street. And it’s not like we’re running from things. It’s just a smart choice of, Hey, I don’t really want my dog to be put in this situation, so I’m just going to move on.

But I will say one thing that I wanna point out is that. I think when we’re walking our dogs, we probably are not listening to a podcast or music or staring at our phones. And I think that is something that so many people do when they’re out in the world. If you have a reactive dog, I don’t really think that is [00:21:00] something that you should do very often.

You need to be aware of being able to hear what’s going on around you and not be distracted. ’cause it’s gonna be really difficult for you to make a quick decision if you didn’t hear, somebody running up behind you with their dog, um, no.

And then all of a sudden your dog notices that dog and then now you’re stuck in the scenario.

Dan: And I can totally see where your thought process was going there with people maybe feeling like this person is really anxious and hypervigilant about going outside.

But it’s actually, for me it’s the opposite. It really, it is. Before I had done any training, my dog was, reactive and he’s what got me started on this journey. And I can recall back when I first started working with him and I noticed another dog, and maybe my dog didn’t see a dog yet. Like, I got anxious and I did all those things that you’re describing.

Like I tensed up on the leash. I noticed that I would hold my breath, you know, and I [00:22:00] would do all these things that were giving my dog signals saying something is not right. And that was occurring because. I didn’t know what to do. That’s why, and I feel like a big part or one subcategory of anxiety, we could kind of place it with defining components of unpredictability, the fear of not knowing what’s gonna happen next, right?

And so part of my job is to go out and to give my clients the necessary tools to know what they’re supposed to do in any given situation. Because if you know what to do, it takes away that anxious part of, oh my God, my dog’s about to blow up. I tense up on the leash, you know, I stop breathing. Instead we’re providing the client with tools and we’re educating them more about how to keep their dog safe.

And feeling comfortable enough. So those things are [00:23:00] just like crossing the street and creating more distance. It may seem like hyper vigilance, but really, like you said, it’s going back to really advocating for my dog and the results of my dog. Displaying better behavioral repertoires in the presence of their trigger is just an additional benefit from the work that we’re doing because we’re really just trying to get our dogs to feel more comfortable and safe.

Jessica: Yeah. And they feel more comfortable and safe with us when we can make decisions in their favor too. Right. I think that’s also, yeah. When talking about these concepts of, okay, you’re gonna cross the street when you see a garage door open. That’s something that our dogs, I think, eventually can pick up on of, oh, we’re doing this and, you know, my human has my best interest at heart compared to people who just walk around and they’re not paying [00:24:00] attention to any of these things.

And then they’re constantly feeling like they’re in scenarios that they, they shouldn’t be in, or that their dog is, is really being compromised in, too many ways. And that doesn’t help our dogs feel any safer being with us. And that’s part of why we have to have this sort of awareness. You know, you mentioned something earlier about the body positioning.

You said that you would put your dog on the opposite side of you. And that’s another thing that I wanna talk about is a different variations of changing directions, but also different types of body positioning of what we can do to help our dogs better understand. Where we are going and where we want them to be.

Because those are two things that when you have any dog in public, even if you don’t even have a dog that’s reactive, like my dog that I have right now is not reactive. But I still will do things like, Hey, I want you to be over here because [00:25:00] there’s lots of people and dogs that we come across on walks that I can tell, okay, we’re not gonna interact with that person or that dog.

Um, so to help my dog know what we’re gonna do in that scenario, I am giving him instructions of, okay, come over here, we’re gonna walk on by. Okay, good job. So that’s a big part of it. And that’s also I think what you were saying of how you help your clients feel less anxious because if they knew what to do in those scenarios, then they wouldn’t feel as anxious.

And so what I kind of wanna unpack here is some scenarios in which. Body positioning and the direction that you’re going are more relevant. So you talked about you’re gonna cross the street from something like you’re on the same side of the street as something, and then you said you’re gonna put your dog on the outside of me and you’re gonna cross.

Um, do you wanna share more about how you found that helpful with your clients and even your own dog?

Dan: I just think it’s a really important skill if you have a dog that’s susceptible to reacting towards things in the environment. [00:26:00] Um, we need to be able to find ways to create barriers and more space.

And not only for reactive dogs, this probably is beneficial for just any, any pet dog that’s going down the street because it can probably prevent them from becoming reactive dogs. So I just find that that’s one of the skills that I’ll build into my foundational skills is like teaching the dog to orient to the left or to the right side.

And ideally, I want that dog to understand the difference between the two, so I can easily flip them from side to side as we’re navigating a walk.

 With my clients is I will teach a structure and a free walk. So meaning the dogs learn that when there’s distractions present, that they’re gonna be doing a more structured walk where they’re walking next to their handler and they’re offering some kind of focus or attention.

And then when those distractions are free, we release them and we give them ability to be a dog and to sniff and explore. And so [00:27:00] in those situations, the dog is allowed to be in front of me, behind me to the left, to the right. Really doesn’t matter as long as they’re not pulling me around town. One of the things that I find, that I didn’t really even realize that I did until this last week is that even like with my dog and a lot of my clients’ dogs, I’ll actually walk on a 15 to 20 foot leash. And that’s just so we can give them more freedom when the distractions aren’t present. If I am in the mode of giving my dog freedom on the leash, I rarely ever let that leash touch the ground. So even if I have a 15 or a 20 foot leash, it is loose. There’s still tension in the line.

To some degree, it’s not sagging and resting on the ground. And the reason for that is because if a trigger is to pop up, I don’t want there to be all this slack on the ground where my dog could take off and turn me into a [00:28:00] kite behind them. So I’m making sure that they’re, the leash is loose, but it’s still elevated off of the ground.

And so if the dog is going straight out in front of me and I do see that there is a trigger popping up and my dog typically walks on the left side for structure, then I’m actually gonna move my body to the right, a few steps to create that angle where I’m gonna be able to bring my dog back to me quicker.

And you can use like walking up the leash in that moment as well, and. If you’re pairing your timing right, then that’s what you’re gonna see and need to do anyways ’cause your dog is gonna see that dog or whatever that trigger may be. And we’re trying to pair that with positive reinforcement, so some kind of food or toy or pets and praise.

So as soon as my dog sees that, I want them returning to the handler for their reinforcement.

Jessica: Those [00:29:00] types of leash handling skills and the awareness for the human to get ahead and position themselves accordingly so that they can make that next step is important. So that means that the human has to act very quickly to get closer to the dog so that you can then give them the instruction more easily. Because I have seen for so many reactive dogs, if you’re all the way behind them, forget about it.

Right. They, it’s kind of like outta sight, outta mind. Yeah. So one of the best things that you can do is actually get closer to them, get right next to their. Like, get right next to their shoulder or right next to their faces so that they can see you and you can more effectively cue them and ask them to move on.

Especially if they’re frozen a little bit or they see something and maybe they haven’t totally started to react yet, but they’re also not responsive to you. Yes. That getting closer to them is one of the strategies that I always employ in that scenario.

Dan: No, and I really, I like that too, because I work in a similar [00:30:00] way in the fact that if my dog maybe we are over threshold and my dog is gonna have a reaction that happens. Right. But even in the sense of having that reaction. I don’t want my dog to have 20 feet of running around and flailing, spinning in circles, barking.

Right. I want to minimize the amount of behavior and movement that my dog is actually practicing in those moments. Because they are associative learners and as, as funny as it sounds like dogs could jump, bark, spin and go, oh, the dog walked away and therefore the next time we’re in this situation, I’m gonna bark, jump, spin.

And that’s going to produce the safety, right? So like I am trying to minimize what my dog is able to practice during those reactions because I don’t want it leading to the rehearsal of these superstitious behaviors.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. I’m glad that you brought that point up.

 There’s a lot of benefit in giving [00:31:00] dogs longer leashes, but then one of the downsides is if they were to see something and that they’re running full speed at the end of that lead, that’s not safe for them. It’s also not safe for whoever’s holding that leash because then that dog has a heck of a lot more leverage than you do.

Jessica: I’ve seen, even for some of my male clients, I’ve seen them drop a long line out of their hands, um, because their dog put enough pressure at the end of it and they couldn’t hang onto it. So that’s one, one big reason. But also how you mentioned that the more the dog can rile themselves up through their movement that also tends to make the reaction bigger. And I have actually seen the same thing that if you allow them to just be lunging, like crazy without intervening as quickly as you can to guide them somewhere else, it does lead to those bigger reactions.

 It’s an important distinction because I think somebody hearing this might wonder like, okay, but what if the dog needed to move to help them feel better? Or what if they felt trapped? ’cause now you’re tightening the [00:32:00] leash, right? Because we just had talked earlier about, well, let’s not tighten the leash.

Jessica: And I think maybe we could separate this out a little bit for listeners in the sense that you know, there’s a difference between like. Your dog notices something and then you, the human tighten up the leash before your dog has even done anything right. Like that. You are the one who does that. There’s a difference between that.

And your dog took the lead, your dog took the available leash that was available to them and they went ahead and created more of that tension to move towards something. Right. And that the sooner that you can redirect your dog, the sooner this whole scenario is going to calm down. And so that’s where the quick thinking on the human end is important, but also I think knowing what direction to go, because I’m sure you’ve seen this with a client where.

They don’t go very far. They like get their dog with them and they only go like two [00:33:00] feet because they’re stuck there thinking they need to give the dog a treat right there. Or they don’t know what direction to go. Or they, I had one client who even went towards the other dog that appeared, um, and I said, no, we wanna go this way.

Like, or opposite way. Yeah. But they’re just fumbling, right? I mean, we all fumble when we’re stressed and like, oh gosh, I didn’t, yeah, I didn’t, or I didn’t know where to go. I think the other thing is to quickly identify where do you go? Okay, it depends on where that other dog appeared from and what direction they’re going, right?

Yeah. So if you are, for example, like at an intersection and you were approaching the intersection and then a dog suddenly appeared. But you pause to see okay, what direction are they continuing to go in? And they just continue to cross the intersection, meaning they’re gonna eventually go out of sight from wherever you are.

It doesn’t mean that you then crossing the street is going to be [00:34:00] particularly helpful in that situation because you’re simply just going parallel to wherever you are and the other dog is right in front of you. So that’s not really helpful compared to a scenario where this dog is gonna pop out in front of you and they’re gonna keep walking in that direction.

Change directions, like literally turn opposite of where you are, and then watch them move away and then resume your route. So I think that is also part of it, right? You have to then assess where is that other dog, where are they going?

And how can I play off of what they’re doing? Because that’s also part of this equation to be able to determine what’s gonna be the best choice right now.

Dan: Yeah. It’s, uh, funny that you’re talking about this now because I have a client that I was working with last week and they were having a really challenging time with

understanding this concept of managing the dog. And they described a situation where they were walking by a particular [00:35:00] fence and there were two dogs that had ran up and scared their dog, and they talked about their dog showing this, intensity as they start approaching this house and, and what they’re supposed to do.

And I think what really made it clear for them is giving them more of like a human analogy. And so what I described that was like almost everybody knows somebody who’s struggled with addiction at this point.

If we’re really talking about somebody who is struggling with addiction and they really have a hard time not going to the bar and not having a drink every day after they get off work. Right? And this is like, the pattern that’s been established from alcoholics is it starts with positive reinforcement and then it flips to like a negative reinforcement schedule.

And so they end up getting trapped and they feel like they have to do it in order to feel normal. Right? And so, in order for those people to [00:36:00] recover it, it requires them changing their environment just like we require from our dog owners. And you can’t expect somebody to be in recovery, but to go to a bar and hang out with all their old bar friends every night after work and not eventually go back to drinking. Like it will, it will happen because that’s how you behave in that environment. Right? So I think like, even just giving ways for people to understand it in human terms is gonna really help them better understand how much they really need to prevent their dog from rehearsing these things.

Because just like you said, I’ve seen clients walk towards the dogs. I’ve seen clients where we’re trying to prevent their dog from barking and oops, they dropped their treat pouch and all these treats went on the ground. And we have a ticking time bomb here. Our dog is about to blow up and they’re on the ground trying to pick up [00:37:00] every little last treat.

And I’m like, get out of there. Keep your dog safe. If you hang out there, your dog is gonna explode. Right? And so those are some of the concepts and ideas that like reactive dog owners need to be aware of. And they need to understand their dogs better, to keep them safe so they can start behaving better.

Because in order to behave better, they have to feel better.

Jessica: Yeah. You know that, that comparison to addiction in humans. It’s so powerful, and it’s not one that I think I really ever thought about in that way, but you’re right, because you’re layering in a lot of the environmental cues you know, like you mentioned, a bar or hanging out with certain people, right?

It’s like these are certain environmental cues that they have associated with that behavior of drinking. Yes. And even if they aren’t wanting to drink, but then they’re still [00:38:00] surrounded by those same cues, it becomes even more challenging for them. So you’re right, that big change in environment is really, really powerful for them because they’re just not surrounded by the same thing.

That makes so much sense because. I think when we’re trying to modify reactivity, it can sometimes seem it almost seems like a fight in some ways, right? It’s like you’re just like, the dog’s inclination to want to respond in this way is so high. And here we are trying to do everything we can to try to get them to not do the thing, but it’s like they, they really wanna do the thing.

And, and I imagine that’s this like struggle, right? That so many people have with their reactive dogs. And I think that’s a really powerful example and also one that I think lends more to this idea of why we need to think more about getting our dogs out of these environments that they have been rehearsing these behaviors in for so long.

Especially if you are trying to build skills and [00:39:00] do it more effectively. Does it mean that you can’t transfer those skills back to that environment once they have reached a certain level of proficiency? You know, both like the human and the dog have the ability to do that, but most clients are just gonna be going in circles if they think that they can take their dog out in the same exact environment, try to add in a little bit of training, but then somehow still completely change their dog’s behavior and yeah.

And the ones that we have the most success with are the dogs who we’re going through making a lot of effort to change the dog’s experience when they leave the house. And there’s many other ways we can change the dog’s experience when they leave the house aside from not necessarily having them be in the same environment either, for example, if they live in a in house that has a backyard and a driveway instead of them doing walks all over the neighborhood, I say literally just walk in loops from your [00:40:00] backyard, go through your house, go up your driveway and then loop back around.

Yeah. That way their dog’s perception of a walk is different, right? They’re like, well why the heck am I doing this? It’s different from the neighborhood walks, but by keeping them closer to home, it makes it easier to prevent any reaction from occurring by walking in environments that the dog’s really familiar with, right?

It’s their own house, it’s their own yard. It also makes it a lot easier for skill building ’cause you’re not competing with all of these environmental distractions. Um, and it’s easier to keep your dog from reacting to things too, because technically you’re closer to home and then that becomes one easy way to build their skillset and then gradually make this loop bigger and bigger and bigger as the dog is successful.

Um, so that is one way that I will do that for dogs who have a hard time leaving or going somewhere else for their. Um, I think there’s other ways that we can help the dogs change their perception of what’s going on when they’re out and about. That’s a big part of what we do with training is changing perceptions.

Yeah. Um, [00:41:00] so anyways, I just wanna throw that out in case someone’s listening to this and thinking,

Dan: no, that’s a, that’s a cool strategy. I really like that concept of just kind of looping the yard, going from the backyard into the front. And I’ll do something similar. I haven’t gone full circle like that, but I will start inside the house and, and go out and go back out.

And I will also like instruct my clients to walk in front of their house and I’ll teach them both things of like a heel behavior where the dog is structured, walking on their side, offering focus. But then I also have like a focus behavior with movement where we walk backwards and the dog follows facing the front of the human.

And so a lot of times in those situations is if this owner and dog don’t have very much training experience and they’re kind of new to leash skills, I’ll have them go out in the front yard and I’ll have them practic. Healing in front of their house. And if their dog goes past, their [00:42:00] positioning for their heel, then I’ll just have them start walking backwards and then the dog starts following them in reverse.

And then I’ll have them just be able to rotate their body where they get the dog into heel again, and then they just start traveling the opposite direction. And you’re just kind of like going back and forth where you’re able to really set boundaries with the dog that I think is important for when you are actually exposed to their triggers.

Because in these senses, and even with what you’re describing is I’m sure the intensity of the dog. Probably gets more excitable or aroused as they’re approaching the front yard from the backyard. Or as they’re passing their front house into the neighbor’s yard because there’s gonna be more smells, more sounds more sight.

Um, and so you’re able to kind of set these boundaries when you’re like, oh, you went too far, now we’re gonna go this way. And because you are gonna need those skills, like I said, [00:43:00] when you’re around your triggers, and that’s one of the ways that I will structure the exposure after a reaction.

So I have to set up certain contingencies because no matter how we wanna look at it, we have to understand that behavior goes where reinforcement flows. And that just means that if you have a dog that barks at other dogs. They like barking at other dogs. They like it. They want to do it. So when you’re in those situations, that’s why it’s so challenging.

If you’re trying to put them behind a barrier, what’s the dog trying to do? Try to get around the barrier to look at the dog and bark at it. So that is a perfect spot where you can start to build these contingencies or these boundaries is I’m gonna put you behind this barrier and I know you want access to that dog.

So how can I teach [00:44:00] you to gain access to that dog? What skills do you need to be able to go over and look at that dog? And the first thing that I’ll be working on is a little bit of handler focus. Like, can the dog orient towards me? Can they look up towards my face? Right? So like, definitely you have to have a loose leash.

So those are all the factors that I’m looking into. And then by getting those, I can start to move my body so the dog can be positioned where they get a glimpse of that trigger, right? And then I can start reinforcing what our desired behaviors in the presence of that trigger. So maybe now they look at that dog and I’m able to feed them for just looking at that dog, or I’m calling them back and they’re able to disengage from that dog and come back to me to get reinforcement.

And a lot of times when you first start doing this, it’s not gonna be perfect. Like you’re gonna creep around the corner [00:45:00] to give the dog access and they’re gonna try and revert to their old pattern behavior and they’re gonna rush out. And that’s where you’re setting that boundary and you guide them back to safety.

And you go, oh, I guess you weren’t ready. Can you come back here? Can you focus on me? Because now we’re actually giving the dog information as far as what they need to do to be able to be exposed to that dog, to be able to see that dog.

Jessica: Yeah. I like how you put those two things together.

So Yeah. Essentially what you’re doing is you’re teaching the dog in order to have access to more things that you want. It is contingent on doing these behaviors or working with us, right? Mm-hmm. And part of this could be examples of we can walk further from home. You can go explore the neighbor’s yards, right?

If we’re doing this first.

Yep.

Or we can go notice that dog if you’re able to do this with me first and it’s also ways that we’re layering in different kinds of [00:46:00] reinforcement because the dog wants to go do these other things.

And I would say the vast majority of the time we’re able to work in that.

Kind of positive reinforcement pocket of, yes, yes. Like, right, the dog is like right answer, right answer, right answer. Look, we’re getting all these things that you really like, but inevitably the dog is going to stray in some way, right? Rather physically or like mentally. You know, they’re gonna be like, oh, what’s this?

And they’re gonna revert back to these other behaviors. And that’s where we’re putting in what you’re describing as a boundary. Some people might consider that like maybe resetting the dog, right? Like, oh no, not that, come on, let’s reset, let’s try to set you up for success again. And I think that if anybody who’s listening to this has ever tried to work with their dog on leash skills, I think leash skills are one of the easiest ways for people to imagine this, because their dog probably walks on a really nice loose lead, really close to home or right in their home.

But then in other scenarios, they’re like flying and hitting the end of the lead. And a [00:47:00] lot of times when we’re working on leash skills, it’s a combination of utilizing lots of different things to our advantage. It’s changing directions, right? So, okay the dog’s getting too intense going in a certain direction, so therefore we’re gonna change direction.

We’re gonna continue to walk on a area that the dog has already walked on so it’s inherently less interesting to the dog. We are building in, you know, lots of positive reinforcement for choosing to walk next to us or checking in. We’re adding in other reinforcement, like the ability to go sniff and go do other things in their environment.

And then at other times, if the dog hits the end of the lead, that we’re not gonna continue moving with them because that is the behavior that we’re trying to decrease. We don’t want the dog to learn if I hit the end of the lead, the human just keeps following me wherever I go.

Dan: Yeah, exactly.

Jessica: Because most people don’t want that. And especially with dogs that are reactive, I am also more of a stickler for. Having them learn how to walk on a loose lead, because I think that not only helps them relax when they’re outside, [00:48:00] um, but I also find that the more tension that they’re putting on their bodies, the more amped up they tend to be in general.

And so I also think that it’s really important for these dogs to learn those leash skills. And it’s not about being really strict with the dogs. It is not about, like the dog’s never allowed to explore their environment. Um, I hope if people are listening to this, they’re seeing like there’s a balance to this, right?

Like I do things very similarly to you where you say when there’s distractions around, we do a very structured walk when there’s aren’t distractions around. It’s very unstructured where the dog can have lots of room. And you even mentioned a lot of your clients aren’t 15 to 20 foot leads.

Yeah. Um,

I would say I usually go for 10 feet personally.

But that’s, you know, we all have our different preferences.

Yeah.

Um, so I usually go between like six and 10 feet depending on the dog. Um, 10 feet is my preference. But it depends on the dog. It depends on the owner, but yeah, it’s like I’m the same way. I want to give that dog as much freedom as I can, but it’s [00:49:00] also really hard when you’re walking in your average neighborhood and you have so many different things that could come across your path that in order to help build this dog skillset, we need to be able to then also, kind of work within the limits of the environment as well. And I don’t know if that made any sense, but this kind of delves into this other topic that I wanted to get into with you, which is helping dogs l translate their skills to a new environment or start to build skills in a new environment.

Yeah. And I’m wondering if you could walk us through if you have a client, and let’s say it’s not like their first day of training by any means, but let’s say, you know, hey they they’re starting to learn some skills now we’re building these in like a slightly different environment.

And let’s say you decide to go to the park. Now I think most of our clients are going to, if they were not with us and we weren’t the ones handling their dogs, I think [00:50:00] they would get their dog out of the car and then they would just go, just wander all over the park and then try to occasionally get their dog to respond to them and their dog may or may not respond to them.

Mm-hmm. And, and there’s many reasons why that’s happening. And so I wonder if you could kind of walk us through what do you do? What are some of the tips and tricks of when you are taking a dog for the first time to an environment like that? Now, granted they know some skills, but they’ve never trained in this environment before.

What are some things that people could do to set that dog up for more success?

Dan: Yeah, that’s a great question and I get it a lot from my clients. And I used to struggle with these challenges as well. And so one of the things that I have learned is one that we first off have to have a reinforcer that’s competing with that environment.

So we have to be having something that the dog is willing or motivated to work for in that setting. Right? They may love like cheese at [00:51:00] home, but at the park, cheese may not be anything for them. It may be more about a ball or a tug toy or whatever that may be. So the first thing that I want to do is have a variety of different reinforcers that I can kind of.

Put into that mix to see what’s really gonna function the best. I’m gonna play and we talked about this in the past, is about almost kind of creating a checkerboard. So when I go to a new environment, I’m gonna start in one spot. So if I’m in a new park, I’m gonna pick a little area usually where there’s less distractions and I’m gonna allow my dog to do a little bit of exploring so they can get acclimated to the environment.

So that’s gonna include like, letting them sniff and check things out. I’m still gonna have some basic rules, like the dog isn’t gonna be able to pull me towards certain areas. The first things that I’m looking at is, can they respond to like a little bit of leash pressure? Which means if I’m going in this direction, can they follow me?

Pretty easily. And [00:52:00] then I’ll look at starting to reinforce, like being loose leash orienting towards me, offering a focus or looking towards my face breaking the tension from a distraction and moving towards me. So those are all things that I’ll start to work with to see if I can get my dog engaged in seeing that there is some value in paying attention to me in that setting.

That may include gamifying even the delivery systems of that reinforcement. So maybe I’m doing like the treat tosses, or I’m doing a catch where my dog has to jump to catch this tree, um, where I’m getting a little bit more buy-in from the dog. And it’s not just like, here’s some food.

You actually are moving around and doing some stuff with the food. So that’s usually how I’ll start, is like setting myself up for success in one space. Um, if my dog is having a really challenging time, I’ll probably move to a place with [00:53:00] less enrichment, so less smells. Maybe I’ll start in a parking lot.

And I’ll work at moving myself closer and closer towards the edge where there’s the grass and the bushes and things that my dog is more interested in. Because we can kind of almost set our boundaries right there in the beginning, just like what we were previously talking about re exposing the dog to another dog or going down the street further, right?

So it’s the same kind of thing is that if we’re generalizing these kind of interactions, our dog is gonna be more receptive or faster to respond to these exercises where maybe we’re approaching towards the grass and my dog like, oh my God, there’s some really good smells and they pull really hard, and I just do a circle, or I walk away from that and then I start to approach again and my dog goes, oh yeah, last time I pulled, so I’m gonna walk a little bit nicer here.

And then they learn that they gain access to that grass, yeah. And then from [00:54:00] there, like we can use that same strategy to kind of move from area to area. So then once I have one spot where my dog can now respond to basic cues. They can take food, they can walk with me.

Then I’m gonna try and transfer that to another area in the park. So we’re gonna navigate over to this next square and we’re gonna work on accomplishing the same task that we did in that original one. And the more often that we do that, the faster our dog is gonna be able to start, like orienting and, and responding to basic cues in a more distracting environment.

If I were to just walk in there and do what you suggested, like with what a lot of our clients may be inclined to do to start is walk in and maybe periodically reward my dog doing something like checking. The problem is that when we start down that slope, we miss the boundary setting already.

And that’s where we’re, we’re building a disconnect. Like the dog is [00:55:00] engaging more with the environment than wanting to engage with the owner. And it’s not that I don’t want the dog to engage with the environment.

I just, I have to be able to compete with that environment, right? I have to have my dog know that I exist when we’re at the park. So those are just some of the strategies that I do to get that communication rolling. So we can go to more distracting environments and have like an joyful or a pleasant experience for both ends of the leash.

Jessica: You, yeah, you shared a lot of things there. I like how you mentioned making sure that you’re using reinforcement that the dog actually wants in that situation, and how that’s gonna vary greatly depending on the dog. Some dogs are happy to work for kibble, you know, anywhere.

Yeah. There’s many dogs who are not, you know, they, they have a very clear preference about. What reinforcers they find more valuable depending on the conditions around them. And so finding things that [00:56:00] help you compete with the environment is big because that’s essentially so much of what you’re describing is that it’s a competition between you as the handler and the environment that the dog also wants to be really interested in.

And again, it might sound like somehow we’re being kind of strict with the dog of like, oh, I want you to stay engaged before you can go do this. But that’s not necessarily what we’re doing here. Part of it comes down to that the dog is not used to engaging with their human in that context.

Right. That’s part of the gap here. There’s a, there’s a gap in the dog’s skillset here. Yeah. And in order to ultimately. Go do park visits with the dog. We have to make sure that the dog can engage with us and respond to us without tons of distractions, but just being in that environment to begin with.

So I think when you’re describing your processes, which are very similar to what I do, if we just waltz all over the [00:57:00] park with the dog it’s very unlikely that we’re going to be able to build the skills that we need to build in order for the dog to be able to be at that park and be able to notice other dogs or, or people or whatever it’s reactive to, um, and be able to build that skillset that it needs to be able to handle that successfully.

So that’s why there’s some strategy in terms of. Starting in smaller areas so that way the environment becomes more boring, which is often how I describe it to my clients. Yeah. That we’re starting in just one area, because I want to let the dog check it out, but I want it to be boring to the dog.

Eventually. I want the dog to be like, all right, well I already saw all this, so I’m like, what else is there to do here? And then we’re like, oh my God, guess what? I’ve got fun stuff planned. Um, you know, and then the dog is engaging with us. And then, and then we move on and we let them explore somewhere else.

Yeah. And I know that you and I also pay a really close attention to the dog’s emotional state. And if we were with a dog for whose sniffing was really important to this [00:58:00] dog. So let’s say we were working with a dog who, when they go somewhere new, it takes them a little while to get used to it.

Sniffing something that’s really important to this dog, we would probably adjust what we’re doing there and think, okay, if you wanna sniff this for 10 minutes, go for it. We’re not gonna. Pull you out of sniffing and make you work with us. That’s not the idea.

No.

But we might just have you sniff a smaller section of the park and, you know, allow the dog to just acclimate to that part and then see if we can get the dog to engage with us a little bit more.

So it’s always about also understanding that individual dog, how do they cope with stress? How easy it is for them to engage with us compared to the environment. You know, what kind of coping mechanisms does this dog have? Um, because I know that you and I would both be very aware of a dog like that, that I had mentioned where they might be more on the sensitive side.

And so they might need us to really slow some of these processes down. We’re not drilling the dogs by any means. It’s their choice, right. Whether they want to [00:59:00] interact with us or not. Yeah. We leave it up to them, but we are trying to Yeah. Compete with that environment. We’re trying to be the thing that the dog finds most interesting.

Dan: It’s just like you said, it’s setting the stage so you become more important . And we’re not trying to remove access from the dog being able to explore. We’re just minimizing that area so it becomes more likely that the dog wants to engage with us than to continue to be distracted the entire time.

But it is really important, you hit the nail on the head is it’s like you have to determine what is reinforcing to that individual that we are working with because sometimes it is the smells that is the reinforcement that dog wants to work for. And I can’t even tell you with like my last dog Jacks, like I remember working through with him and there’d be some times where I would put food down on the ground as like a barometer, right?

And I want him to eat that food and my expectation is that he’s going to look up [01:00:00] for more food. And then I’m gonna do some kind of like Leslie McDevitt Super Bowl. So he looks at me and then I’m gonna mark and I’m gonna move and I’m gonna put more food down. Well, he didn’t care about the food, he only cared about the movement.

That’s what he wanted. He wanted movement, exploration to be able to sniff. And so I remember just sitting there for like 10 minutes one time, putting food on the ground and waiting for him to look at me and him just looking everywhere else except for me. And then on the next attempt when he actually looked at me, I just marked it.

I was just like, good boy. And I just walked forward a few steps and then he kind of explored and then I just paused. And then he looked at me like almost instantaneously, and I marked that and I moved ahead again, and then all of a sudden I had this pattern that I was looking for. I was looking to achieve it through food, but he was like, no, I will check in if you take me somewhere else.

If you [01:01:00] just move me around here so I can explore. I will give you what you want.

Jessica: Yes. Oh, I love that you listen to him like that. And yes, because a lot of times we, as the human part of the equation, we tend to go in with expectations or we think, well, this is what the dog should want in this scenario. And part of that, in our own defense.

In another scenario, Jack’s probably did want the food, right? So it’s not like you walked into that scenario , having no learning history yourself, with your dog, right? Knowing that in the past, in other scenarios, he actually did find food to be valuable. But I think that’s a great lesson, and I’m glad that you shared that because a lot of people are gonna encounter that with their dogs of, you know, they’re trying to give them something, but it doesn’t seem that the dog is interested in it.

And so, one of the things that I always ask myself if I’m working with a dog like that, and they’re not interested in me, is I just ask myself, okay, well what is the dog interested in? Like, if I were to look at the dog right now, where is their attention? [01:02:00] What is it that they’re looking at? What is it that they are doing?

And then is it possible that I could give them that thing?

Dan: Yeah. It’s always about trying to find how could I give the dog what they want, where I get what I want as well. And that’s the equation that we’re trying to find the answer to.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. How to work with the dog.

Yeah.

Yeah. Sure. So I wanna pivot off of that a little bit. You know, we talked about. How do we prepare dogs when we’re trying to help them feel more comfortable in different environments and build their skillset? And I’m wondering if we could talk about if the dog does react, what to do.

Because I think for so many of our clients, they hear our advice. And we also did say this in, um, in today’s, you know, recording to change directions. Right? And so then I think without adding in a few caveats there, which we’re gonna get into, I think people hear this advice of. If your dog is overwhelmed, just leave.

[01:03:00] Or if your dog reacts, just get them out of the situation. Yeah. And I know that you and I both don’t only do that. There’s some other things that we incorporate here because we don’t want our clients to just run from people or dogs Yeah. The rest of their lives. Like that’s actually not the full picture of what we’re suggesting to our clients In the immediate, like the immediate, your dog looks like they’re not gonna be able to handle it or something is just simply too close.

Yes. Movement is very helpful. Guide your dogs somewhere else, but it doesn’t mean run the other direction.

Right. So,

and never come back. So, so, okay. So tell us what you do with your clients in those scenarios.

Dan: Yeah, I think you are correct. And for me, like early on when I first started learning, that’s the message that I got is like to turn and move, make more [01:04:00] distance.

But I think the first thing that we really have to understand with leash reactivity is that the only reason why our dogs are behaving this way is because we have gone away or because that other dog has gone away. And that is what’s maintaining. This whole behavior repertoire. So if we want to change that, we have to get into the business of being able to re-expose our dogs and for them learning that it wasn’t necessarily barking and lunging that produced this safety and security, it was by doing these other behaviors that we find more appropriate.

So when a dog has a reaction, or even before they’re about to react, I’m always looking to identify the signals that are going to. Throw some flags at me to tell me that my dog is having a challenging time and they’re about to go off the rails. So I [01:05:00] really need to be able to identify those things.

And if you’re early or new to this with your dog, it’s okay for your dog to react, like I said earlier. But it’s just being able to identify the little cues that our dogs give us before they have that big reaction. Just for an example is with like my dog, Milo. He’s a German Shepherd. And when he gets aroused, the tip of his tail will curl up really tightly.

On a normal walk, it would be relaxed and just flat. But when he knows that something is in the environment, or if I know that he is about to react, I will see that tail start to curl up really tightly. And that’s my first signal. There’s something going on over here that my dog is interpreting and I need to reel him back in.

So that is the first signal that my dog is starting to take that route of becoming [01:06:00] unhinged or, or going off the rails. And this is where I really need to like build in those or practice those skills that we’ve been working on, like orienting towards the owner practicing more of that structured walk.

Um, getting my dog to focus on me. So that’s the first part is we all wanna be able to identify before our dog actually reacts. But if we do have the reaction, then I’m gonna look at achieving a couple of things. The first thing is stopping the reaction. So how do I stop the reaction? I either use my body as a barrier to block the visual access for my dog, or I will guide them behind a barrier.

I’ll create more distance by guiding my dog away from the trigger. Or I may do a circle tactic where again, I’m guiding my dog away, but I’m circling back towards the trigger for my dog to practice a different set of behaviors [01:07:00] when they’re re-exposed. So that’s where it kind of goes into if my dog has a reaction, it’s probably gonna be challenging to get them reoriented and focused on us.

But that really is one of the first skills that we’re looking to achieve, is to minimize or reduce the amount of recovery time that it takes for my dog to have this big reaction to coming back and being able to work with me. So that’s your first goal and that, that depends on what stage you’re at with your dog in this journey.

You know, if you’re still early, it may mean that I’m getting behind a barrier and I’m really just focusing on building those skills so my dog can like. Focus on me. Or maybe even take food in that instance, right? Or maintain a leash that’s not tight, a loose leash. And then once I’m able to start establishing those behaviors, then I want to give my dog that separate awkward opportunity to see [01:08:00] that dog or the trigger, whatever it may be again, and to practice a new set of behaviors.

So it kind of goes back to our talk with the walk and setting the boundaries is here now that I have my dog where they’re capable of taking food and now they can look at me again. Now I have the ability to say, okay, it looks like you are capable of handling this experience, so I’m gonna walk you back out here.

When we see that that trigger, we’re gonna keep that exposure very short and sweet on the first couple reps. And so maybe it’s just the dog comes out, they see it good, and then we run back behind the barrier. And we get the reinforcement behind the barrier. If I’m in situations where I don’t have things to work around, then I’ll use like, the circle method that I had learned from Denise Zi.

And that is more of guiding my dog away. So I’m gonna be using leash pressure to create more distance, but after I’m [01:09:00] able to disengage my dog from the trigger, now I’m really setting that boundary again as far as reapproaching the dog. So I will often find in those instances that. My intensity or my movement has to be much quicker in the beginning when the dog is actually seeing that dog and they’re going into that reaction.

I have to move a little bit quicker to get my dog to disengage, but after my dog actually disengages, then I slow my movement down dramatically, and then I’m almost letting the dog match my movements to be able to get that exposure again. And I kind of said it, so like if you could imagine we’re walking towards the dog.

And my dog has this reaction. So now I’m guiding them away to safety. And now my dog is finally disengaged and we both have our backs to the trigger, right? So now at [01:10:00] this point, I am the one who’s regulating when the dog is going to be able to circle back and see that other dog. And so in that moment, I will really start moving slowly.

Stepping, maybe taking one step and pausing to see if the dog pauses with me, because if they don’t and they keep on going past me, I end up just circling again. So I guide the dog to safety because what they’re telling me is that they’re not capable of being exposed to that trigger at that point.

 All right. You just unpack a lot there. So. Okay. So to kind of recap some of the things that you shared so one, you gave a lot of great examples of using barriers to your advantage, whether that’s your own body, another physical barrier, like a car or something that you might see out and about, or literally just walking the opposite way, right?

Jessica: So then you’re at a further distance.

Yeah.

But that you do that barrier for a bit. And then again, this also [01:11:00] comes down to how you said like where is your dog at with their skill level, right? Because some dogs are really well rehearsed with some of these behaviors, and it’s easier for them to recover in these scenarios compared to dogs who.

Need a little bit more time to recover or they need and a little bit of time, and I’ll say going both ways. A little bit of time behind the barrier, right before you expose them again. So like, okay, let’s take a breather. Maybe this breather needs to be a little longer for this dog. Or maybe I need to walk further away, right?

Than I might if it was another dog that you were working with that you knew could handle that scenario. So one way or another, the time spent away from the trigger, you might lengthen that a little bit more, depending on the dog and their skillset and how easy it is for them to recover.

But I really like how you also worded this as a way of helping dogs decrease their recovery time. Learning how to decrease their recovery time. Yeah. ’cause I think that’s something that I, I don’t think that it’s really talked [01:12:00] about enough in the dog world, or at least I don’t always hear as much about it in terms of like, well, how do you help the dogs do that?

And you know, I do very similar things as you where, okay, we’re gonna move away, but I’m probably gonna maybe linger or try to play around with this a little bit and see where do I get, you know, with this. Yeah. I’m not always looking for perfection either. Right. Sometimes, like you said, I might just see, can the dog even just take food right now?

I’m not even gonna ask for anything. But can the dog even just eat right now? Okay. We got that. Good step. Okay. Now I’m gonna ask for a pretty easy behavior. Okay. The dog did that. Okay, great. Now I’m gonna ask for a little bit more. So it’s, so we said. You know, progression of almost like testing the dog out to see what can I get from you while at the same time then testing out the level of exposure to what they’re seeing.

And I think there is also still a lot of value in hanging out in that pocket, so to speak, even if the trigger’s no longer in the environment, because sometimes what we’re describing as coming back out and looking at the dog. [01:13:00] There’s a lot of times where the dog isn’t there anymore, right?

Like the dog left, she was long gone. It’s not even there. But I don’t care. I actually still skill build in that environment. Yeah. I’ll be like, no, no going anywhere. The dog knew that the dog was once there, so they’re still gonna be interested in that direction at least. So I am still gonna work with the dog in this pocket because there’s still so much value in the dog.

Had recently seen a dog there and now we’re able to build the skillset because those events are happening. Back to back you saw a dog and shortly afterwards we did this. Um, you know, which is some of the skill building, are you engaging with me?

Or again, being able to walk more calmly as we’re going in that direction. Um, yeah. Those are all really, really important skills for these dogs to learn. And I think sometimes if we think we can only skill build when the dog is totally under threshold and has never had a reaction, then it’s gonna be so difficult to,

Dan: it’s gonna be a long road, [01:14:00] uh, covered.

It’s gonna

Jessica: take Yes, exactly. It’s gonna take even longer. Yeah. Um, to really start getting, some of these skills built. I would describe my training approach as very opportunistic. If I see an opportunity anywhere with a reactive dog when I’m on a walk, I’m taking it as an opportunity to build that dog skillset.

Yeah. Because I’m always thinking, oh, this is gonna be a great time to do it. And yes. Is it ideal that the dog is at a threshold that’s optimal for learning, of course. But you can’t ignore the fact that these dogs also need to learn how to respond to their handlers and how to calm themselves down when they’re not at this optimal threshold.

It’s a skill that reactive dogs need to know. I, I like that we’re talking about this because I think that it’s something that we need to be working with our clients to still practice in these scenarios to try to avoid this whole idea of perfection when you’re out with your reactive dog of your dog full time, because that doesn’t happen that way.

How to work with [01:15:00] your dog once they have gone over a threshold and what can you do with them, I think are also really important skills for the human end to know.

Dan: I’d also add that, I forgot, but it came back when you were talking, is that I also instruct my clients, if my dog reacts I tell ’em to be quiet and do not talk to the dog.

Do not feed the dog. Do not pet the dog for at least like three seconds. You want some recovery time or you want to be able to redirect the dog so we’re not inadvertently reinforcing the dog for those behaviors because there have been plenty of cases where I’ve gone out and found that. Actually what’s maintaining that reactivity is the owner’s response after the dog starts reacting.

So I want to be cognitive and aware of that as well. So I’m not inadvertently rooting my dog on or cheering my dog on to bark at another dog. So that is one way that I’ll [01:16:00] instruct, my clients as far as. Working through those reactions. You also mentioned like going back to the recovery is a lot of times in that mode, if I’m behind a barrier, I may change the strategy of how I’m delivering that food.

So I may be doing scatter feeding during that time where the dog is actually foraging and sniffing to get those treats. Because there have been studies done and we know that dog sniffing helps them regulate and it lowers their heart rate. I will often sometimes have like little chews in my pocket as well.

So I may have like a really quick Turkey tendon that a dog can chew up in 30 seconds but it’s still helping the dog be able to redirect some of that energy towards a decompression exercise. ‘Cause that does let them exert some of that energy in a more appropriate manner.

Jessica: Oh, I love that. That’s such a clever idea and yes, you’re right. [01:17:00] I’m so glad that you also mentioned the way in which we deliver the food rewards because it is very impactful. Um, depending on what we want from the dog. You know, if we’re trying to build in more calmness, I tend to always feed on the ground.

Or as you said, doing scattering food where you’re feeding more copious amounts of food so that way the dog’s head is to the ground for longer periods of time. Right. Than just feeding one treat. You know? Versus if we’re trying to build enthusiasm or, or a lot of movement in a certain direction, we might toss treats, um, right.

You know, in a certain direction which the dog is getting excited about and picking up speed and so forth. But we might not want those things, particularly if our goal is to help this dog recover and calm down for a little bit so that way we can come back out

 I really love the idea of the quick chew, because that is something that would keep their attention for a little bit, but it’s not like a bully stick or something. But yeah, those quick choose. That’s a really, really great idea. So thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

Dan: Yeah. And you also [01:18:00] said something that you can build on as well, which was that sometimes when you’re behind that barrier is that we’ve been behind there for so long that that other dog is already gone.

Right. But that still provides us with a training opportunity because. A large majority of reactive dogs are going to want to explore and get information about that dog that was just in that space. And so you have the opportunity to kind of work on your leash skills and ensuring that we’re maintaining a loose leash or that the dog is offering some kind of focus while we travel to that area and give them access to that dog or information about that dog.

Jessica: Yes, I do that too. Yeah. Whenever possible. If I think that the dog wants information about where that other dog once was. Yeah. Um, I do the same thing where, okay, now that we’re calm and collected for the most part, now we’re gonna go venture over to go see where that dog was, because that is, it’s very reinforcing for them to get an idea of, of who that other [01:19:00] dog was, be able to sniff, the area that they were just in.

So yeah, that is definitely something that I do a lot, especially for my cases where the dog is a little bit more frustrated on lead. Like they, they actually really like other dogs. Yeah. And they, you know, really want to go say hi to them. At least I could give them some piece of the dog that they saw.

Not the whole dog.

Dan: Exactly.

Jessica: Yeah. Little part of it.

Dan: But it is, and they seem to take it as highly reinforcing. So, we just follow what the dogs tell us.

Jessica: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Dan, this was really helpful. I feel like we covered so many things today in terms of, you know, skills for the human end and how we can build their skillset more when they’re out and about on walks in a new environments and what to do after they’ve seen something that they were concerned about.

So I think that anybody that has a reactive dog is gonna find this to be really helpful because I think you gave them a lot of gems today. And then I think even for other trainers too [01:20:00] I think that you gave a lot of great information today, so thank you.

Dan: Of course. Well, thank you for having me. This was really a great experience.

Jessica: Oh, good. I’m happy to hear it. Thanks for coming on.

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