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Imagine being a dog walker for reactive dogs in one of the densest cities in the United States – San Francisco. 

And then, imagine walking those dogs on 10-20 foot leashes. How do you balance giving a reactive dog the choice to move away from things that worry them, while also keeping the community safe?

In today’s episode I am joined by that person, Alisha Ardiana. Alisha shares so many gems with us including:

• Her formula for getting dogs with stranger directed aggression to feel safe enough to go on outings with her 
• How she helps reactive dogs find safety, joy, and relief among stressors on walks
• Her Gamify Your Walks approach that transforms reactivity in her clients
• Why narrating (explaining to your dog what is happening around them) is so powerful 
• Her personal story and how that influences her work with reactive dogs
• And so much more 

About Alisha:

I have a Biology degree from the University of Notre Dame, and I planned to become a veterinarian.
Once I began working with animals, I preferred the role of a caretaker. I moved to San Francisco & became a California Registered Veterinary Technician. I worked in this field for 20 years.
In 2015 I decided to pursue my passion to support guardians and their dogs and became a positive reinforcement dog trainer.
I typically work with dogs that are labeled as shy, fearful, reactive, dominant or aggressive.
My work is based on everything I’ve learned from Amy Cook, Deb Jones, Susan Friedman, Kim Brophey and Sindhoor Pangal.
My professional letters include CPDT-KA, FDM, CPCN (Certified Professional Canine Nutritionist).
My wife & I are guardians of a 17 year old cat and a 6 year old Papillon. When I’m not doing dog things, I love to cook and attend live theater and concerts.

Transcript

Jessica: [00:00:00] I am Jessica Wheatcraft, and this is Rethinking Reactivity, A podcast designed to educate, empower, and equip the modern handler of reactive dogs. Whether you have a reactive dog or you help people with their reactive dogs, you’re in the right place.

Imagine being a dog walker for reactive dogs in one of the most dense cities in the United States, San Francisco. And then imagine walking those dogs on 10 to 20 foot leashes. How would you balance giving a reactive dog the choice to move away from the things that worry them while also keeping the community safe?

In today’s episode, I am joined by that person, Alicia Ana. She’s a dog walker and trainer who works exclusively with reactive dogs, specifically the types who are worried about [00:01:00] new people and dogs and prefer to keep their distance from them. We discuss her formula for building trust in these dogs who often take weeks to acclimate to a new person, and she shares how she gets them to feel comfortable enough to go on field trips with her.

We also discuss how she helps her reactive dog clients feel safe and secure when in public, and how she modifies their reactive behaviors through her approach called gamify Your walks. One of the things that stood out to me the most in this conversation is just how impactful it is when you are a consistent, trustworthy guide to a reactive dog, and how that in and of itself can make such a difference in their behavior.

Alicia shares a lot of great takeaways with us, so let’s dive in.

I do have our dog with us because we have a Papillon and obviously a [00:02:00] Papillon on the other side of the door could be a problem.

Can I explain why I have a Papillon? ’cause that’s very important in my training.

Jessica: Yeah, totally.

Alisha: So, I am a reactive dog walker and I feel like I spend my day protecting the public from my client dogs. Yes, they all concerned, most of them have concerns about unknown people or unknown dogs. So when I decided to get a dog, I wanted a dog who would not be a threat to the public. And I wanted a dog that would be a training machine that would not be a threat to my wife or the cat and would not be a threat to the public.

I was at a conference with Kay Lawrence and Susan Friedman right before the pandemic, and when I decided that this was my criteria, I went around to other people that were at the conference. And the Universal, pretty much the universal idea was get a Papillon. Okay, so, um, a trainer in the area set me up with another woman that had [00:03:00] papillons.

I got to meet them and then she gave me some ideas on breeders. And when I started contacting breeders and I explained what I was looking for, the breeder I found in Washington said, oh, you know, I know you want a puppy, but I have a 10 month old female that fits that criteria. And she was supposed to be a show dog, but apparently she had a slanty butt, it’s called the sloped croup.

And so she had a 10 month female. And then I was worried because a lot of times I’ve seen clients get a dog from the breeder where the dog didn’t have a lot of outside exposure. And the last thing I wanted was a dog that was under socialized. I made her take me a million videos and. At dog shows around kids, around other dogs.

And I said, okay, I’ll take the dog. Yeah. I threw up there. Now I look back on this, I flew up there Valentine’s Day 2020 to Washington State, not even knowing what [00:04:00] COVID was at that time. Got the dog came back San Francisco, shut down. So that was Valentine’s Day, San Francisco shutdown. St. Patrick’s Day.

Okay. And so I have a 10 month old female within three months we were ambushed in our neighborhood and I have spent time na navigating reactivity ever since.

Reactivity with her. Yes. So she was neutral to the public. Yes. But within three months of getting here, okay, uh, coming out our front door, we live in a Victorian flat. So you go upstairs and there’s a landing. We came out the front door. There were two reactive dogs on the sidewalk. They broke away from their guardian.

They came ramming running up our stairs with their flexi leashes. Clacking. Okay. And that one experience changed our lives forever. Wow. I made contact, but we escaped into the house. And so that was 13 [00:05:00] months. And it only takes one yucky event during your adolescent life to forever change your viewpoint on dogs.

Yeah. To this day, if we walk out of our house and we see another dog, I need to explain to her, I see that dog. I am on it. I recognize there is another dog across the street. I’ve got your back. And it’s the journey that I’ve taken with her for this last five years that has massively changed my dog training because when you have a Papillon, you don’t have enough calories in the day.

Every time. I live in a very dense neighborhood in San Francisco, San Francisco next to New York City is the second most crowded city in the United States. So, and then I live in the Mission District, which is very high volume in terms of businesses and high density apartment buildings. And so I could have 20 dogs walk by my house within 15 minutes.

[00:06:00] So everything that I have done with my dog has been to help her recover, not only from that initial trauma, but then unfortunately, despite my best intentions. Despite my best abilities, my dog has been attacked physically three times.

Jessica: Yeah.

Alisha: Every single time. The other dog didn’t give a warning.

Jessica: Wow. Do you wanna also share the relevance when you were saying that you only have a limited amount of calories?

Yes. For people who won’t understand why that’s significant.

Alisha: So when you have an 11 pound dog, their nutritional needs, I have about an ounce of food a day for training. So an ounce of food is about 30 grams. So it’s recognizing that, you know, the, the typical model of there’s a monster, here’s a treat.

I used to say, I don’t have enough calories in my day to tell my dog San Francisco is safe. And so I can say that, unfortunately, based on the food I use, she ballooned up to [00:07:00] 12 pounds. We are currently on a diet and we’re counting calories. We’re at 11 pounds and my goal is about 10 and a half pounds for her to be at the end of the day.

But it’s recognizing that when you have a toy breed. Food is really not an option to change behavior to make the really, or it is an option, but it is using quality over quantity. And to me it is much more about using activities, games, hobbies, interest to change behavior rather than just classical conditioning.

In my mind, any time I’m trying to significantly change behavior, I’m really looking for activities that can replace the behavior.

Jessica: Yes, and I, we’re gonna totally get into this today because I love so much of what you do and. I really like that this is part of your story because not only, like you said, you are a dog walker [00:08:00] for reactive dogs or reactive dog walker, which is also super interesting that we’re gonna talk about.

And then you have this personal story with your own dog who’s a toy breed, who got attacked a couple of times, who then became concerned about other dogs. And then you have these very specific challenges to you, which are where you live, and how many dogs you would encounter when you’re out and about, and using what we might.

Call, I guess we could call it more traditional positive reinforcement based methods with reactive dogs, which is usually very heavily food based. At least it’s the beginning in the middle stages, very much so. And how you had to really think outside of the box and also come up with a lot of other strategies that are also going to help your dog, which I love.

So let’s dive into these things. I think I first want you to share more about you being a reactive [00:09:00] dog walker, because I know that this has really shaped so much of your experience with these kinds of dogs and what you do with them when you’re out and about. So maybe start from the beginning. How did you even think about becoming a reactive dog walker?

How did this even start?

Alisha: Oh, that’s such a great question. So like I said, I live in San Francisco and. Most people expect that your dog will go out on a walk where a person comes in a truck, they load up six dogs around the city, and then they drive them to the beach and let them off leash. That’s kind of the traditional expectation for people to have their dogs walked.

A certain dog was not successful in that environment. He was a border collie named Belay and a border Collie, uh, Aussie Mix. Uh, adolescent male was not successful in that environment and bit the handler. And then his trainer was looking for a walker and his trainer was a friend of [00:10:00] mine. I had just finished dog training school.

I did the dog training internship academy. I was working part-time at the SBCA, uh, in the animal therapy department where I would take dogs out to work with. Um, um. Challenging populations that could support, that could use therapy support. And then I also was working at SF Puppy Prep. So I was working in the puppy school, so I was doing socialization of puppies and I was working in animal therapy.

And then my friend had this dog that needed a walker. So I said, okay, I’ll give it a shot. And what I can now say, based on everything I’ve done, the first thing you do when trying to make friends with a sensitive dog is to establish the environment where they feel safe. And so that is now anyone who I work with, my first question for any of my clients and my own dog as well, is what is your version of safety?

And so it was recognizing that this [00:11:00] dog did enjoy going to the beach, but being in the group environment with the handler was too much stimulation for him. So we. Got a lot done. We became very good friends. I ended up leaving my other position at the SBCA and I became his daily walker. So I started walking belay.

Then another trainer had another dog that was not a candidate for walking. She was incredibly fearful. She had a really terrible origin story. She had been found on the side of a highway nearly dead. She was a dalmatian named Stella. And so I said, okay, I’ll give this a shot. And then Stella, we ended up meeting her.

I met her family. So San Francisco is a peninsula, so think about a thumb. So San Francisco is a thumb and on one side of the thumb is the ocean. And on the other side of the vertical side of the thumb is the bay. And so the Bay Trail is often a place that is going to be easier to walk and be less populated.

So I met Stella’s [00:12:00] family at the Bay Trail and we walked and they were surprised how much more comfortable Stella was walking on the Bay Trail, which was called Heron’s Head Park. And we agreed that if we could get Stella in the car and I could take her to her head every day, I could walk her. Okay. That took about a month, took me about a month where I would meet.

There were three dads and I would meet, every dad would take a different day off from work and come home and meet me at the apartment. We would walk in together. We would put the dog in the car together and then I would drop the dad off at the bus stop and I would take her to the park and walk her and take her home.

And so it’s understanding that that was she, belay and Stella were the two hardest dogs I’ve ever met.

Jessica: Yeah.

Alisha: But both of them taught me what is your version of safety? Then once we establish your version of safety, what brings you joy? Then when you are [00:13:00] stressed, what brings you relief? And that is, that is now the model of training that I continue to use based on what I learned.

What is your version of safety? What brings you joy? And then when you are actually experiencing stress, which now we can actually look at it as social pressure in terms of when we are in public and you see an unknown person, you are concerned, you have to meet that person. You are concerned, you have to meet that unknown dog.

So when you are experiencing social pressure, what will give you relief? And I can absolutely tell you with Belay and Stella, they had polar opposites of what they needed. Neither one of them wanted food. And so it was what I learned walking these two dogs who were basically my incubator that has informed the rest of my training.

That is

Jessica: so cool. And I love those three things that you just listed. What do you need to feel [00:14:00] safe? What brings you joy and. I’m gonna kind of botch that last part with the stress related part, but how did, what helps you feel most comfortable when you are feeling stressed or under some sort of pressure?

What sort of release do you need? What Relief. Relief is Relief. Relief

Alisha: and relief. And Relief comes from Andrew Hale. So Andrew Hale is, um, one of my mentors. And so it really is working with Andrew that has enabled me to identify that relief is the word that, to me, most describes what I’m hoping to achieve with my dogs.

Jessica: Yeah. Yes, I love that. And what you also described, if we’re just using Stella as this example, that I think makes this a little bit more unique, is that. First, you and her three dads had this dedication to this process to make sure that she felt safe with you. That [00:15:00] is something that I don’t think gets talked about enough When you have a dog who’s not comfortable with new people and you have this scenario where they still potentially need somebody to care for their dog, right?

They need somebody to maybe help exercise the dog or this all too familiar scenario for a lot of my clients is. Well, we need to travel, or my God, they have a life, right? I mean, sometimes they need to leave the dog alone with somebody or, or send it somewhere. And where do you even send a dog like this?

And if they can develop a trusting relationship with somebody like you, then it does at least fulfill part of that need. I know that you are fulfilling a lot of like their daily exercise needs by taking them out. And the fact that it took you guys a month really just speaks to one, your boat, everybody’s commitment to this process.

But also that for some dogs, it just takes that long. And if it takes that long, it just takes that long and you just have to go with it. Um, [00:16:00] because once those dogs then feel comfortable with somebody, it’s like they invite you in their inner circle. And I’ve always felt like like the circle of trust, um, you know, that movie where.

Well,

Alisha: you know, that, that’s, um, that’s, um, cir circle of trust. So if you look, um, uh, raising a secure child circle of trust is actually a lot of what I work on. So circle of trust is an attachment system. So it means that the, the child the pet feels safe with you and then they’re able to go out into the world and explore, and then if they feel conflicted, they can return back.

So the circle of trust is absolutely something I employ. And again, the book is Raising a Secure Child, which, uh, is something I lean in to heavily with my dogs, is building a secure attachment. So secure attachment means you can do stuff with me, you can go out into the world and then hopefully when I have that secure attachment, it is gonna enable me to create distance from [00:17:00] you and absolutely.

My goal with my clients is to be able, lemme tell you, let me, lemme back up a little bit. I firmly believe that. When we are living with our dogs, we need, we have five things we need in order to live in harmony with our dogs. We need to build to walker our dogs in public.

Jessica: Mm-hmm. We

Alisha: need to be able to have visitors.

We need to be able to administer veterinary care for any problems we run into. We need to build to leave them alone at home. And we need them to stay with a dog professional. So I am very clear, and I’ve put this very clear on my website, if these are five things you need help with, I will help you. I am not an obedience trainer.

I am not a control freak. I’m not here to teach your dog how to heal. I’m not here to teach your dog how to go to place. I’m not here to teach your dog how to be in a crate for eight hours. But absolutely, I think it is very important for you to, again, walking in public visitors, veterinary care, alone time, and a dog professional.

Those are the five things you need, and [00:18:00] those are the things I help my clients obtain.

Jessica: I love that. Love that. I want to talk also a little bit about how you’re setting up some of these di like, I guess it, it, it, it’s a dynamic, but you mentioned how when you first met with Stella, how you were walking in a location that you knew she was gonna feel most comfortable in and then you happened to be there and then later you transitioned this a bit to what I’m assuming is you arrived with your car and they came in your car.

’cause you mentioned dropping them off. So I’m assuming Yes, yes. I can give you the steps. You had your vehicle. Yes. I’m just assuming that, but let’s just make it clear to the people who are listening. Yes. Because part of that is also some little nuances that I don’t think dog professionals actually.

Illustrate enough about how impactful, changing just some [00:19:00] ways that a dog is coming into contact with you, actually sets the stage for helping them become more comfortable with you in general. So if you wanna give us your little formula here, I think that’d be really useful. So it is

Alisha: a formula, but at the same time there is no timeline.

Yes. So it’s understanding. So part of it is, so again, we established the walk is good. Okay. Also, Kim Brophy taught us talk like Mr. Rogers. Narrating is critical to explain to the dog what is happening every day. So part of it is telling the dog, Alicia’s here, we’re going for a walk. If someone’s home. So part of it is being able to say we’re going for a walk.

So we establish what going for a walk is we establish who Alicia is. Also, if you look on my Instagram, if you ever see Stella, you will see Stella, and she’s a dalmatian. On days that I walk her wears a bandana. So on days that Alicia is coming, when dad gets up, dad puts the bandana on the dog. [00:20:00] So I think of it like a child.

If you get up one day and you stay in your pajamas, it’s a Saturday. If you get up one day and you put on a nice outfit, it’s a Sunday, you’re going to church. And if you get up other days and you put on your school clothes, you’re going to school. So we establish the bandana, means the lady is coming. Most of the time if I have a sensitive dog, we identify a harness that the guardian can put on the dog.

Before I get there, that is safe for the dog. Typically, it’s a rough wear. Not always, but typically the rough wear harness is a harness that the dog can be wearing with the scarf when I get there. So the formula with Stella was I would meet a dad outside. We would walk into the car, they would put the leash on the harness she was already wearing.

They would walk her down to the car, she would get in the backseat, they would get in the front seat. I drop them off at the bus stop. I also use a 10 foot leash. It is [00:21:00] a high till hikes leash. I work with Liz Williams who owns high till hikes. So then part of it is we arrive at the location and I am able to open the door.

The dog can step out of the car and I can step on the leash so that I don’t have to handle the dog. When we leave the car, I tell the dog we’re gonna go hiking. I always walk for 30 minutes and I walk based on time, not distance. So I let the dog walk me for 20 minutes. I call it the 80 20 split. 80% of the time, Stella gets what she wants 20% of the time.

I get what I want, what do I want? We are not here to make new friends or new enemies. So when you are tied to the human, you are not responsible to the public. You are not allowed to walk in anything unsafe, which is typically glass or a plant called a foxtail, which we have. And we’re at the end of foxtail season.

It is a plant with needle-like barbs that [00:22:00] all of us struggle with. So you are not allowed to walk in glass or foxtails. You are not allowed to eat anything unsafe. You are not allowed to roll in anything unsafe. But otherwise, if you wanna sniff this fire hydrant for five minutes, fantastic. The walk is about the dog’s journey, not my destination.

And I think of myself like a kindergarten teacher. I am taking you on a field trip. It is not up to me to tell you which displays you’re gonna like, but you’re not here to interact with the public and you’re not also not allowed to destroy any of the things that we see in public. You walk for about 20 minutes based on the distance we have covered.

I say, okay, we’re done. We’re going back to the car. If every day you do this, the dogs learn the routine the same way children learn. We went on a field trip, we had a great time. Now we’re going back to the bus to go to school. I tell her we’re getting in the car. I open up the door, I throw a handful of treats.

She gets in the car. I [00:23:00] close the door. We get home. I am very lucky she has a garage, so I’m able to pull into the garage, close the garage door. I open the door, she hops out. Oh wait, I take that back. I open the door and I tell her, we’re gonna take your harness off. So I’ll say leash. I unlock the leash. I take that off.

I say harness, and I hold the, I unclip the harness and I hold it. She pulls her head back. I say scarf. I hold the scarf. She pulls her head back and I have a video of what this looks like in completion, but it’s understanding that all of these steps were something we did every day, because having a pattern of predictability enables her to get out of the car.

I say, okay, we’re gonna get out of the car. We’re going home. She waits at the door. I open the door, I yell into the hallway, is anybody here? ’cause she lives in an apartment building. I’m able to say, okay, no one’s here. I open up the door, she runs up the stairs. I run [00:24:00] with her. I unlock the front door. She goes in the house.

Her dads have toys with food set up. So she has an enrichment game when she gets home. And I basically never have to touch her.

Jessica: I love it. I love it. What is Stella’s relationship like with you

Alisha: now? Are you I am the bodyguard. I am the bodyguard. It’s very interesting. If nobody is home. We are very bodyguard.

However, because this continues to be a challenging relationship to this day, and because her dads are so amazing about once every six weeks, I will go over on a Sunday and I will bring brunch and we will hang out and she is a totally different dog when I am there with the three dads.

Jessica: How so? She’s

Alisha: warm, she is fuzzy.

We play games, we do tricks, but she is my most traumatized dog. And to this day, when it is just the two of us, it is all business. And I can [00:25:00] give you a photo of her adoption photo and you can see how difficult she is. My most difficult dog to this day, we are, it is a business relationship. When I come in and no one’s home, she’s standing there waiting.

I can put treats down on the ground and she eats the treats and I hook up the harness and I leave. But I would say there is no actual affection in that exchange because she is so traumatized. Yeah. Yeah. I never reach out to touch her. I do my best to explain to her everything that’s happening, but then because of our relationship, the other thing that I learned with Stella was when we first began walking, and I’ve walked her for about nine years.

I’ve walked her for about nine years, off and on during the pandemic, blah, blah, blah. But she and I have known each other for nine years. This is a dog who when she was concerned about the public, which was everything, she did not want food. She [00:26:00] did not want games. She did not want toys. So this is when I began using a long line.

So, because part of what I learned was, I can’t give you anything for reinforcement, but distance. So it would be, I would walk at Heron’s Head Park, which is a bird preserve, and I’m able to see people coming and I had her on a 20 foot leash and I would say, you know, we gotta move. There’s a person coming.

And she would run out on the leash, but, and I had nothing to offer. I had nothing to offer. So as far as I was concerned, as long as she did not make contact with the public, it at least gave her something to do. Running was still better than barking. Yeah. But what was really amazing was very quickly she learned if I have 20 feet to run towards the jogger, and again, let me be clear, if I have a dog on a 20 foot leash, I have to make sure nothing can come within 50 feet of us.

So it is not that I’m doing this on sidewalks, but we’re in a park. But what she learned was within a couple weeks, she learned if I had [00:27:00] 20 feet to run towards the jogger, I have 20 feet to run away from the jogger. And again, I saw that I was better than running towards the jogger. Eventually she started realizing.

Nothing’s chasing me and the behavior extinguished. So then it became, I call it a game called pinball. I see a person, let’s go the other way. Now it’s understanding that if you were walking straight towards a person, you cannot do a 100 degree 80 u-turn because it doesn’t make sense in terms of safety.

If you are out hiking and you run into a coyote, you would never do a 180. You would go left or right. What I started learning with Stella was we see something, we go left or right. Oh look, there they go. They went away. So over time, within about three months, the reactivity extinguished.

I never used games, I never used toys. I never used anything that would be called traditional [00:28:00] reinforcement. I just taught her. We see something, we move, we see something, we move. And I haven’t had reactivity in years. So now what’s really interesting is she and I walk and she’s on a 10 foot leash, and if she stops walking and she looks at me and she looks like she’s sucking on a lemon, her face will be all pinched up and her eyes will be squinty.

And I’ll look around and I’ll say, oh yeah, there’s a dog. Okay. And then I’ll say, what do you wanna do? Do you wanna move? Meaning that we go around a car, do you wanna cross, meaning that we cross the street, or do you wanna go back to the car? And then she tells me what we’re doing and then I follow her.

And then obviously if I’m crossing the street, I have to make sure I’m walking on a street where traffic is not heavy and I’m able to do that. But consequently, I haven’t carried a tree pouch with her in years. Because she tells me there’s a problem. And part of this came about because every day [00:29:00] when we come home from the walk, her dads have hidden her toys with food.

Her nose has gotten a lot better. So she’s able to give me, in general, she alerts about 30 seconds before the dog appears. Mm.

Jessica: Yeah. They are, their ability to, to perceive things, especially when they’ve had the opportunity to really hone in on that is, um, is pretty remarkable. I really love how you’ve had to figure out ways to use other type of reinforcement besides food and toys and or play. And I also know from when we’ve talked before about the work that you do is that you are.

Specifically taking these reactive dog clients to specific locations where you also have that ability to give them more of that space. And I’m wondering if you could share more about that so that [00:30:00] way listeners can kind of really put this together in their minds of what this environment looks like and why you’re able to, like with a dog like Stella, well, and I guess the other dogs as well, right?

Have them on these longer leashes while still being able to keep them safe and other people safe.

Alisha: Yes. So you always want to pick an environment where the dog, where if you want a dog to walk with neutrality, pick an environment where neutrality can happen. So I specifically identify parks that are supposed to be on leash, but I recognize that some people don’t follow the rules.

So I do need to be vigilant in terms of looking around me to make sure people are not interrupting me with their off leash. Dogs, other parks in San Francisco. Where I could possibly run into off-leash dogs, I will typic typically stick to the perimeter of the park because I have learned, I can say my dog is fearful, my dog is reactive, my dog is injured, the public [00:31:00] doesn’t care.

But if I’m walking in proximity to car traffic, I am much less likely to run into an off-leash dog because that car traffic is what will prevent the dog from getting too close. Yeah. I can also say in times where I’ve been in a jam, where I have been cornered, inadvertently, I will say, stay back. She’s contagious.

Mm-hmm. Because what I have learned, and I learned this by a mistake actually, I used to walk a dog named Chewbacca. I have a video of PO of Chewbacca and Penny on my website. It’s really amazing. Um, Chewbacca was reactive, penny was reactive. I walked them together. They were this wonderful, amazing duo. So Chewbacca was reactive because great Pyrenees on leash and many dogs had felt threatened by him.

So it’s under understanding that one time I was out with Chewbacca and he had an eye infection and I didn’t walk with the cone because I was able to monitor him, but someone had an off leash dog and the dog started [00:32:00] to approach and I said, no, we don’t wanna say hi. Stay back. And she said, oh, it’s okay.

He’s friendly. And I said, no, he is contagious. I’ve never seen anyone move so quickly. She got her dog. So things to think about. Here’s a tip, pro tip. If you get stuck, you can say Stay back. Because part of saying stay back, she’s contagious. By you having your dog on leash, you’re being the responsible citizen.

If your dog has ringworm. That is contagious to the public and to other dogs. So often I’ll have that cute little french bulldog or that doodle that you know is gonna bite the kid and you say, ma’am, she’s got ringworm. You don’t want that. People will move away. You can say, Hey, my dog’s getting over Giardia.

I don’t know if we still have it. I haven’t been to the vet yet. Stay back. So you look like you care about the public. Chewbacca on the other hand, like I said, had an eye infection and that I was able to get the woman to call the dog off. But there was an older gentleman that [00:33:00] always wanted to pet Chewbacca and I knew that Chewbacca would bite him.

So I had to do a deep dive into what is something that is permanently contagious. Dogs can be carriers of MRSA, that m um, MRSA, that really gnarly bacteria you can get at the hospital. So I was able to say, I’m so sorry, sir. He’s a kid. He’s a carrier of MRSA. I’m never gonna be able to let you pet him.

So being able to scream, stay back, he’s contagious, enables you to channel some of that energy you have ’cause you’re in a panic. But it makes it look like you actually care about the public because if you say, my dog bites, my dog’s fearful, my dog’s reactive, you are more likely to get negative feedback and judgment from the public.

But if you say, Hey, he’s contagious, can you give us space? You are more likely to get buy-in from the public.

Jessica: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense, especially because. Being, having ringworm or being a [00:34:00] carrier for certain, certain diseases is it’s not the dog’s fault, right? So there’s this element of, well, it’s not really their fault, so okay, now we understand.

Whereas like there’s nothing to judge there because it’s, oh well this is a thing. I mean, how would, who would even ask for that? And then yet things like, I need space ’cause my dog is not sure about people or whatever. It’s like it’s so much easier to blur those lines or pass judgment.

Alisha: Yeah. And especially because I’m in an on leash park.

If I was in an off leash park again, I would get judgment of why are you letting your contagious dog hereto expose us? And even though I do not believe that being at an on leash park, off leash park gives you the right to meet my dog, I at least recognize that those lines are even more blurred and off leash situations.

But by me being in an on leash park. Again, part of it is as soon as I see someone with an off leash dog, I raise my hand. And here’s another, here’s another tip. Do not say call your [00:35:00] dog if you don’t have to, because people don’t like being told what to do. But if you say, raise your arm and just make, use your body language to say, can your dog stay with you?

And then they say, oh, it’s okay. He’s friendly. No, that’s great either. Again, we’re training, which should be a sufficient way to say, I don’t wanna meet you. But again, if they continue to give pushback, please stay back. He’s contagious. I don’t want you to get this. People are more likely. So again, part of it is walking in parks.

They’re supposed to be on leash walking. If you have the ability to walk in a park in proximity to traffic will often help you avoid the off leash dog being able to signal to the public as soon as possible. Can your dog stay with you because saying, call your dog. People don’t like that. Being a Karen and saying, put your dog on leash.

People really don’t like that. But just asking, can your dog stay with you? That’s great. And again, either [00:36:00] say we’re training or he’s contagious. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Enjoy the park. Say as little as possible. Do as much as you can to say, I don’t wanna conflict with your space. Can you give us hours?

Jessica: Love it. Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s going to be really valuable for a lot of the listeners. Thank you. I want to talk about the games that you play with dogs, the gamify your walks, which also, by the way, we’re gonna put the links in the show notes so people are going to be able to see this because I know that you actually have videos and so forth so people can actually see what this looks like.

Alisha: So here’s the thing. Yeah. So I’ll, so here’s the, I’m sorry I’m interrupting you. I’m sorry. No, go. Here’s the thing. Gamier walks. So let me also explain this. Before the pandemic, I walked five reactive dogs a day. Take a dog, pick up a dog, take ’em to her inside, take ’em back. The pandemic hit. All of my employees were Apple and Google.

I went on [00:37:00] unemployment. I hated it. I worked part-time at a vet clinic, but I basically cashed out my savings and I hired a videographer to make videos of what I’m doing. So that being said, Amy Cook, who teaches at FZ, um, dog Sports Academy, Amy Cook is one of my mentors. I have taken every single one of her classes at least three times. React of management for reactive dogs is the foundation of this video.

So I am always, and Amy is credited in the video, but I am always here to say I did not make up these games, but I took what Amy did and I made my program. So Gamier Walks, I wanna explain two concepts that explain how this came about. So again, remember I used to walk reactive dogs, big dogs. Even though I worried about keeping the public safe, I never worried about my safety because I walk big dogs at bite.

Getting a pappy on changed my [00:38:00] life because every time I’m out in public with this dog, I’m protecting her. So what I learned about when it comes to safety, if I’m out walking in a park in San Francisco and we see a coyote, as soon as I see that coyote I freeze. ’cause you don’t wanna attract the coyote’s attention.

You wait for the coyote to hopefully move along. If the coyote sees you and moves towards you, you create distance, but you do not turn your back on the coyote. You go left or right. So that’s how I walk my dog in the day. Meanwhile, I walk in the mission district at night and I live in a relatively unsafe neighborhood.

If you Google my neighborhood, we have a lot of problems. We have homelessness, we have prostitution, we have knives and guns and threats and vandalism. But it’s understanding that I don’t have a yard. And if I go out at night and I come home at 11 o’clock at night, I’m gonna walk my dog. So if I’m walking my dog in the mission district at night, I do not share the [00:39:00] sidewalk with the public.

I can also tell you, several years ago, I made the mistake of sharing the sidewalk with the public and I was held up. So part of what I realized was we often do not actually employ safety measures for our dogs that we would do if we felt unsafe. So if I am walking my dog at night and I see someone in the distance, I wait.

If they’re coming towards us, I move. Here’s another example. You’re walking at night in my neighborhood. If you think you’re being followed, you have three choices. You could stop and see if they keep going, you could cross the street or you could turn around and mace them. If you turn around and mace them, you may feel relief.

You may feel like you have solved the problem, but A, what if they weren’t following you and you just maced an innocent person? But B, what if they were following you and they pull a knife? So fight. It’s never a good option if you freeze and you wait for that person to keep going, what if they are following you?

Now they take your phone. [00:40:00] Here’s the thing. If you’re walking at night in my neighborhood, and again, this happens to me twice a year. I’ll be walking at night and I think someone’s following me. We cross the street. If that person doesn’t cross the street, I feel relief. But if that person does cross the street, I cross the second time.

And if that person crosses a second time, which again, this happens to me about twi once or twice a year, I will then either run for home or run for a public establishment. At one point, I stood in the middle of the street and I screamed, I know you’re following me. You’re not gonna get me. But it’s understanding that my version of safety is challenged every day in San Francisco.

Consequently, what we wanna think about with our dogs, we see stuff in the distance. We wait, we see stuff coming towards us, we move. Consequently, gamify your walk is based on games with stillness and movement. The first game I teach any dog is up is all four paws on an object. It could be a rock, a log, a stair.

Here’s the thing, if the [00:41:00] dog barks and stuff goes away, they feel better. But if the dog jumps up and stuff goes away, they feel better. So up is the first game I teach a dog. So up is all four paws in an object. And that used to be that I used to think two paws up with still up, but Amy explained no, that’s a totally different behavior.

So I call two paws up. Spot, spot could be anything vertical. Mm-hmm A wall, a ledge, a planter, a fire hydrant. So it gives the dog something to do with their body that gets a treat. How we deliver food is very important. ’cause if I say up and I shove a treat in the dog’s mouth, I don’t think that’s very reinforcing.

I wanna give a dog choice. So I could toss the treat and say, go. So the dog chases the treat. I could throw the treat up in the air and say Ready. And the dog catches a treat. So increasing the value of the food through treat, catching, and treat chasing is important. So up is all four pauses in an object [00:42:00] spot is two paws up.

Go is chasing the treat. Ready is catching the treat. So it could be we see stuff in the distance and we wait and we play upper spot. It could be we see stuff in the distance and we move and we play go. But what’s really amazing is if the games meet the dog’s version of safety, the games are reinforcing.

If the dog chooses to disengage from the trigger and play with me, that is reinforcing if the dog makes me laugh because they’re ridiculous in how they play up and spot and ready and go, that is reinforcing to make the human laugh. And if they get their version of safety, that is reinforcing. So when we play games with our dogs, it’s not just about food, it is multiple layers of reinforcement.

And consequently, I have seen the dogs will see the trigger. They will often look for an opportunity to play upper spot with me, and [00:43:00] therefore the food dramatically moves from a primary to a secondary. It plays a supporting role. And I can tell you that I can walk my dog on the beach in California, and if she sees another dog that she is concerned about, she will look for a rock to jump up on.

Because every time she’s jumped up on something, the dog has gone away. Mm-hmm. And so I no longer use food when I walk my dog, because in general, my dog is able to solve her own problems. There are many exceptions to that. There are many times I need to step in and drive, but in general, what I have learned is we teach the dog the games first.

Mm-hmm. Then we play the games every day. Then we start saying, there’s a person up. Well look, they went away. You did that. I, it becomes, we see dogs, we play games, dogs go away. We see people, we play games, people go away. And many times the game [00:44:00] becomes the primary reinforcer. I shouldn’t say primary, I don’t wanna blur the lines.

I would say many times the game becomes a much more important deal than the food. Yeah. And many times all of the reactivity, extinguishes, because the dog knows how to collaborate with me to get to their version of safety.

Jessica: Yes. Because you’re so clear is another thing that I’m picking up on is that your focus on clarity is way at the top.

It’s like a huge priority for you is how can I be as clear as I can for this dog as to what they can expect and how can they make things work for themselves? How can they have more control and influence over over what happens? And I also love that you talk about. The delivery of the food reward because that is also something that I do a lot and also wholeheartedly believe in that feeding the dog to the mouth can be helpful sometimes, depending on the scenario, but many [00:45:00] times finding more fun ways we can maybe call it, like playing with food is so much more fun to the dog.

And if you’re going to use food, why not elevate that and find more fun ways to do this with your dog. And so if somebody’s listening and they haven’t tried doing a treat chase, simply just seeing how does your dog respond if you actually tossed that treat a little bit versus feeding to the mouth.

Although I think you and I would both wanna clarify for somebody that that is something that you would want to actually teach as an actual behavior, how to chase a treat. Because for dogs who are not used to getting food. In any other form except for it being delivered to their mouth. Sometimes they could get a little bit confused if you then suddenly just chucked the, you know, the treat 10 feet away.

So it does need to be a slower progression to things in terms of introducing dogs, how to chase treats. But once they figure it out, I completely agree. I use treat chases all the time as well [00:46:00] as using things in the environment for the dog to interact with because I found that it does, it makes such a big difference in how reactive dogs perceive the world and when they’re out and about and they’re seeing things that they’re not comfortable with and how do I problem solve this and what’s available to me here in this moment?

And so much of what you do is, it’s simple, but it’s so powerful and that’s. Really what I think most good training is it’s often just the simplest of concepts that are applied really freaking well that make the biggest impact.

Alisha: Yeah. Thank you. So I’ve got a couple different things I can share with you.

So gamify your walks is the professional video that is 10 minutes and it explains go spot ready up. Something called the Magnet Walk. And again, that’s an Amy Cook Management for reactive dogs. Mm-hmm. A couple holes in the video [00:47:00] game are that I had one day to make the video, so I don’t have a lesson actually on treat catching in the video, but I do have one that I took with Chivetta.

Because treat catching is something that has to be taught and the video is actually not very helpful for that. Also something called the magnet Walk where the dog is learning how to walk while you’re holding food that is gonna be different with a toy breed. So, but Gamify can show you go and ready and spot and up.

And then also I did a separate blog post with high till hikes because then you could put the games together. And in my mind, the Up Go game is the coolest thing you can do with a dog. So we teach our dog to jump up on something. And again, rather than. Feeding the dog by mouth, we say up go and they get to chase a treat.

And in my mind, the up go game is often a more, like, for example we had an up [00:48:00] platform in every room of our house during our dog’s adolescence, because I could say, there’s the mailman, here’s a treat. But again, a, I don’t have enough calories in her day to do that. Every time we hear noise. But we have to look at the ratio.

How big are your feelings about what is going on in the world? Either potential home invasion, walking on the street, whatever. But then how big are your feelings about what I’m offering to help you find relief? And in my mind, having an opportunity to play the up go game is often what can compete with some of the more challenging situations.

So when my dog was an adolescent, we had bags of cat treats in every room because again, you don’t have a lot of calories, so cat treats are amazing ’cause you can limit your calories for your toys, but then you can also say Fiesta and throw a handful of treats for your dog. And so you’re able to do that with less calories.

Fiesta to me, is super easy because it’s just a handful of [00:49:00] treats and then your dog gets to look for them. But again, remember, I don’t have enough calories in my day to play Fiesta every time we hear a trigger outside. But if we hear something and I say, oh yeah, I hear that dog up. Go up, go. Then you could say up, ready, sit, ready, down, go.

And I think of the games duck, goose, mother, may I, Simon says, red light, green light. They’re all games based on stillness and movement. And when you can start going into game mode again, it can be we see dogs, we play up, you know, sit, ready down, go like, and you just make up all these different combinations.

And then you can start throwing tricks in up, spin down turn, and you just start doing all these rapid fire tricks. And then the dog is like, what was I worried about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so it’s really, again, looking at the ratio. How big are your feelings about what’s going on in the world? How big are your feelings about what I’m offering to help you [00:50:00] feel better?

And playing games with the human sit, ready down, go. It’s so simple, but it’s so much fun. And it makes me think of being a kid and playing with my cousins when I went to go see my grandmother. So it’s again, tapping into that, how do we help our dogs think about the adults that you played with as a kid.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I’m gonna agree with you on that as well, that it’s fun for dogs for a to jump on things, right? Whenever we teach dogs up, it’s like. Every dog I’ve ever done this with is like really gung-ho to do the behavior. It’s something that is just, I think, naturally reinforcing for them because I think there’s also a bit of a sense of a accomplishment for the dog of, yeah, okay, I did the thing.

And so then it’s fun for them to do that and because they’re able to move, which we all know with reactive dogs, that movement is something that’s so helpful in terms of them ex either expending any sort of energy. That they have inside of their bodies, or [00:51:00] if that’s helpful for them for stress relief, whatever that could be.

But it is targeted movement because you have taught up and so it’s, Hey, move here. So it’s also really clear, there’s almost a sense of like boundaries there for the dog of them. Oh, okay, I’m gonna move here and then I’m gonna move in this way. And they’re listening for our cues, which then there, if we were gonna, you know, use a label, we might use the term like impulse control, right?

They’re having to think about, okay, well now you queued this, so, okay, so now I’m gonna respond to this. And then some of these cues have a little bit of stillness in them, which is okay, freeze for a little bit and then go. And so all of these elements, it’s so similar to what I do with reactive dogs as well, because you’re layering in all of these other elements and components that.

Really help with changing their actual behavior. But then if we were to guess how the dog feels, which again, ’cause we can’t always say how we think the dog feels. We can base it off of our education on dog body language and you know, our relationship with the dog and so forth. [00:52:00] But we can’t really hand ’em a microphone and ask them like, so tell us how you’re feeling right now.

We’re just guessing. But, uh, I do think that for the vast majority of dogs, they have way more fun doing that than classic counter conditioning of you see the mailman, I’m just going to deliver a piece of chicken to your mouth. I don’t do that anymore in my own training. I’ve not done that for years and years and years because I feel like dogs want to do something.

It’s not just eating. They want to do something more than just the eating.

Alisha: I agree. And if you think about it, you know, part of what was interesting, we just came back from Cape Cod and living in San Francisco, I’ve decided you have to have systems. Yeah, because everything is a challenge.

Parking is a challenge. Keeping things in your car without getting broken into is a challenge. And so what I just realized was going to Cape Cod where you don’t worry about looking for parking, where you don’t worry about leaving something in your [00:53:00] car ’cause it could get broken into. So much of it is living in San Francisco.

We need systems. And what I’ve just decided is gamify is my system, but it doesn’t work for everyone. Some people don’t wanna use a long leash. Some people want the dog to walk in a heel, and then I say, great, then I’m not the right trainer for you. But what I’ve just really realized is every time I make a choice on behalf of the dog, again, if the game that I invited the dog to play, if it provided relief.

Then often I’m able to override what would’ve actually worked for the dog and say, let’s do this instead. So it’s understanding that, as I said in the beginning, we see stuff in the distance. We wait, we see stuff coming towards us, we move, but it’s understanding that’s not always gonna happen every day.

I’m not always gonna have that opportunity. So it’s recognizing that part of what happens is through these games is that consequently, I often now am able with my dogs who have done this enough [00:54:00] with me. Something is coming towards us, we’re gonna step out of the way and we’re gonna play the ready game and stuff is gonna go by.

And so that’s what’s also been really beautiful, is that I’m able to then make decisions on behalf of the dog that we wouldn’t typically make in the beginning, but because we’ve done this every day, we see people, we play games, people go away. I’m able to teach the dog, you know, my dog now knows that she can put her paws on my knee.

If a dog is passing. But it’s also understanding that I have to be careful about not sharing sidewalks if I don’t have to, because so much of my concern is I can’t predict what the other human will do or what the other dog will do. But that to me has also just been really neat and I post things every day on my Instagram, and then I have longer videos on my YouTube where I’ve been able to chronicle what I’ve done with my walking clients and my own dog.

And that again, my goal is the more [00:55:00] we can focus on do the activities, provide relief, the less I have to rely on my treat pouch.

Jessica: Love it. I’m wondering if we could talk about a couple of pieces to your work that are more personal. And from what I’m understanding, you’re biracial? Yes.

And you were adopted? Yes. Okay. How has that influenced how you go through the

Alisha: world and how you work with dogs? Thank you so much for having this as an opportunity to talk about. I’m in a unique position in that I’m adopted, but I am in reunion with my biological family. So part of what was always challenging, so I’m half Cape Verdean, Cape Verde Islands are off the coast of Africa.

They were originally unpopulated, but during the slave trade, they realized that that was a great place to store the slaves. And, uh, the Cape Verdes also became a penal colony. [00:56:00] So if people were punished in Portugal or Spain, they got sent over to the Cape Verdes. So I am literally, my father is Cape Verdean.

My father is a hundred percent Cape Verdean. And so I’m 50% Cape Verdean, and I am literally descended from. Criminals and slaves. And uh, my mother was Lithuanian. Um, so that’s an Eastern European country and she was also 100% Lithuanian. But I was adopted into a white German family and it was a challenge because they were always like, why do you have to talk so much?

Why do you have to like animals so much? Why do you have to like food so much? So it’s recognizing that as I grew up in this adopted family, there wasn’t anyone that mirrored or reflected back the unique traits I had. And so consequently, I was always told, oh, you’re so unique. There’s no one like you. But I was also really suppressed a lot because I didn’t align with what my parents thought I should be.

Um, I had a reactive dog when I [00:57:00] was 13. I got a Shetland sheep dog and I loved this dog, but she was incredibly reactive and I. Used a lot of yucky things because I was 13 and I was told to spray her with water and shake a can of pennies at her and put her on a choke collar and she hated my father.

So every night when I was in high school, I would finish up dinner and I was sent to my room with the dog because otherwise the dog would be roaming the house trying to attack my brother and my father. So I grew up with this dog. I loved her, but it was really hard because the dog and I were basically banished.

And so I always say I wanna make up for all the yucky things I did to my Shetland sheep dog, but it’s understanding that. Then I went to college and I started realizing that I was gay and I moved to San Francisco, and that was very hard for my adopted family. They did not like that I was gay, and that was very upsetting for them.

And I had my challenges in San Francisco and I started struggling with a lot of depression and anxiety, and I [00:58:00] decided that it couldn’t get any worse. So why not look for my biological family? There was a unique opportunity in that Massachusetts, where I’m born, my birth record used to be sealed in that I had tried to obtain my original birth certificate several times and I could never get it.

In 2008, they opened up the birth records. I through a fluke, found out the birth records were open. I located my record, I located my mother. She came out to San Francisco and met me for a weekend, and it was great, but she got, it was too overwhelming. She couldn’t handle it, so she ghosted me and that’s okay.

But before she left, I got my dad’s name and I ended up locating my father. And what’s crazy is that both my parents, it was a one night stand. She was in high school, he was in college. He abandoned her, so she gave me up for adoption. But, um, for whatever reason, both my parents moved to San Francisco to start their lives.

So in [00:59:00] 1976, both my parents lived in San Francisco, unbeknownst to each other. Um, my mother no longer lives here, but my father never left San Francisco. So when I located my father, the first time I called him, we were in the same area code. Oh my gosh. And so it’s understanding that I feel like I’m a penguin because all of us moved to San Francisco to find our fortunes.

And I located my father and his name was Richard Andrews. And he was the love of my life. And unfortunately he died in 2015. But what was so amazing is that it turned out I wasn’t unique. And it turned out that every significant trait that I had was actually inherited my love of animals, my love of food, my personality.

And my father used to say he never knew if he should laugh or cry when I lost my temper. ’cause he looked so much like my grandmother. The reason why I go back to Cape Cod [01:00:00] is that where my family is from. And when I go back to Cape Cod, I will inevitably be sitting in a bar and someone will be looking at me strangely, and I’ll laugh and I’ll beckon them over and I’ll say, do I look familiar to you?

And then they’ll say, who are you? And I’ll say, I’m Dot Andrew’s granddaughter. And I’m Ricky’s daughter. And then they’ll start talking to me. And then I get very animated and very chatty, and they inevitably start crying. And that literally happened last weekend. And they will grab my arms and they’ll say, you have your grandmother’s arms, you have your grandmother’s laugh.

And so it’s understanding that every biological trait that drove my family crazy wasn’t my fault. And so consequently, when I get that street dog, when I get that purpose bred dog that has this genetic trait, we have to learn, just like Kim Brophy said. We need to support the genetics. We cannot suppress them because I can tell you that my parents locking me up in [01:01:00] my bedroom every night when I was in high school because I was so loud and so chatty, and me and the dog, and blah, blah, blah.

All they did was suppress my behavior. And even though I met my biological parents individually, both of them literally said the same thing. You look more like me and you act more likely than the three children I raised. How could that be? And so every time I get a client that says, how do I get my vula to stop chasing birds?

How do I get my great Pyrenees to stop guarding? Let’s lean into the genetics. Let’s help your dog realize their potential. Let’s find activities that sustain their behavior healthy. Because let me tell you, if I would’ve grown up with my father, I would be on TV right now because my father loved me and supported me.

He helped me manage my emotions. And in the time that I had with him, he helped me so much. And it’s so hard when I see dogs [01:02:00] struggling because to me it’s just someone needs to see who you’re supposed to be. And so meeting my father was the greatest thing that ever happened. And losing my father was the worst thing that ever happened.

But when people say, why can’t my dog just be quiet? Well, what are activities that keep your dog quiet? ’cause my parents wanted me to be quiet too, and locking me up in my room didn’t work. But if you want your dog to be quiet, what can they lick? What can they chew? What can they do? Because let me tell you, this dog has been silent for the last hour because I’ve got her biological, physical, emotional, and mental needs met before I sat down with you.

Jessica: Ooh. Okay. That was very moving, Alicia. My goodness. I’m like even getting choked up here. Wow. That is such a powerful story. It’s, and

Alisha: it’s,

Jessica: I just [01:03:00] am, I’m so glad that you shared this. And my goodness, and yeah, your whole story, I can absolutely see why reactive dogs resonate with you so much. Is because they, uh. Often are not seen for who they are. And it’s often so much of just always wanting to change their behavior or have them be something different rather than listening to what they’re trying to say or, or trying to express and finding ways to meet their needs.

And that’s not to say that when you have a reactive dog that trying to address, if reactivity wouldn’t improve everyone’s lives, because like you said at the beginning of this podcast, one of the five things that you think every dog should have is the ability to take them out and walk in public. [01:04:00] And with a dog that’s reactive, that is something they need to get out and exercise and, and get out in the world.

But it doesn’t mean that we need to abandon who they are. In order to achieve that goal. And so this whole model that you have with how you work with reactive dogs and how you walk them and take them on these field trips and stuff, it’s so special.

Alisha: Thank you. Well, what I now boil it down to is every day my dog, your dog, our clients, every day. Were your safety needs met? Were your social needs met? Did you get a chance to look for snacks? So for example, I’m wearing a T-shirt today, the Golden State, IES Uhhuh San Francisco has a new women’s basketball league.

I went to Notre Dame, so I know a lot about professional sports, but I’m gonna tell you, going to University of Notre Dame during the heyday, I was there when we were, you know, coming off the [01:05:00] national championship. The toxicity of sports was really hard for me. We had a lot of football players that got away with stuff.

And so sports has never really been my thing. But my wife really loves women’s basketball and my wife got season tickets and I kind of poo-pooed it like, oh, basketball. But women’s sports is totally different. And I don’t know if you know this, but San Francisco, this is the first women’s team to come out in like eight years and we are the most successful new team.

We have sellout games of 18,000 people in our arena, and yesterday we won our whatever 18th game. So we are the most successful. It’s called an expansion team. Expansion means it’s a new team. We are the most successful team to have come out in the women’s national Basketball Association. And so what I’ve learned is it’s really amazing going to a women’s basketball game because I feel safe and it is [01:06:00] very pro-gay and lesbian.

So again, I feel safe. And so because I feel safe, I can be social and I can actually chat with people and people high five and then we can go look for snacks and you can get a cocktail. They’ve got Thrive Cities, so they have lots of restaurants. And so this is what I’m really leaning into is my version of social because I feel safe.

I can be social, but it’s understanding that I don’t always have to talk to people. I can go to a movie and not talk to people. I can wait in line at a grocery store and not talk to people. And that’s what we also wanna recognize is the definition of social is enjoyment of shared activities. And so part of what I really want our clients to think about is just because we’re in public with our dogs doesn’t mean we have to have engagement.

Doesn’t mean we have to have interaction. And so it’s understanding that it is very rare for me to have a social opportunity where I actually talk to the public. The Valkyrie has been a [01:07:00] really beautiful example of that. And consequently, that is something I do with my clients is that I do group meetups where we do what I call gamify your group walks.

And so twice a month I invite all my reactive clients, and something that’s been really beautiful is that I’m growing the social village for my clients.

And so we go to a park, which is called Candlestick Park, which actually used to be our stadium and they never finished tearing it down, but it’s this huge state park and the dogs get there, and I do six dogs in a group and everyone’s on a long line, but the dogs get there and there’s always concern. So we give dogs distance, but pretty quickly the dogs figure out, wait a minute, you know the lady.

I know the lady. You play up. I play up. You play go. I play, go. You like squirrels. So do I. And I’m able to help dogs walk and we coexist because again, the definition of a social is enjoyment of shared activities. It’s not requiring [01:08:00] engagement. And so I’ve been able to play matchmaker for a lot of my dogs and that a lot of my dogs have dramatically expanded their social village with unknown people and unknown dogs.

By doing these groups, and again, if your version of safety is met, you can be social, but social again, interactions need to be mutual. Mutual. I’m not doing high five with someone if I don’t wanna do high five. But if I don’t wanna do high five, I don’t put my hand up. And that’s what we have to recognize is all my clients know that when we’re in public, when we are on this walk that I’ve been able to help them integrate their dogs into a wider circle based on, again, respecting their version of safety and social.

Jessica: I love that and I love the example of the, uh, the Golden State balconies. All right. Alicia, is there anything that we didn’t talk about today

Alisha: that you’ve share here?

The one thing is, I wanna be clear, [01:09:00] I use a 10 foot leash on the sidewalks of San Francisco. However, I’ve been able to design a special leash with Hightail hikes that has two handles. So it’s understanding that giving someone a 10 foot leash for their dog was incredibly overwhelming. Many people couldn’t handle it.

So I designed a leash where the handle is at 10 feet, but there’s a second handle at seven feet. What I teach my clients is we’re gonna hold the leash at seven feet. And so your dog gets seven feet of movement. But then if you’ve got the first handle around your wrist and you’re holding the second handle, if something is approaching, you can say up and you can open up your hand and let go of that second handle and the dog can run away.

But I do wanna be clear, I use a 10 foot leash on the streets of San Francisco. ’cause here’s the other thing, you can always shorten a longer leash. You can’t lengthen a short leash. So it’s just understanding that I get a lot of clients who get upset with me because they’re like, there’s no way I can use a 10 foot leash.

And it’s understanding that I [01:10:00] built the second handle so that now we have seven feet for you to move about the cabin. But it’s understanding that when you teach a dog, ’cause being on leash limits choice. So when I teach the dog that you have control, you can move away. We do our best to walk in predictable environments, but if the environment is not predictable, we need to be predictable for our dogs.

But most importantly, teaching your dog, they can move away from something that bothers them, helps them achieve their version of safety. And so consequently, when I am walking in the most dense blocks, the dogs usually gravitate right back to me. And so it’s just, again, recognizing that the 10 foot leash gives you choice and control.

Often, there are times where I take the control and that there are times where I would like it if you’re walking next to me and then we practice treat catching. So it is just being clear that I don’t always have the dog 10 feet ahead, but I need to have the opportunity for the dog to create [01:11:00] distance when possible.

Jessica: That is important. I’m glad that you brought that up because yes, there are times where we need to step in because like you said, the environment is not predictable or something’s just simply too difficult for the dog and they need more of our support. And Because you’ve spent so long with these dogs being that safe, predictable person. Uh, so of course they would choose you.

Alisha: Yeah.

Jessica: Gosh. Well, I really enjoyed this conversation. I just really love your perspectives on everything that we had talked about today.

And thank you so much, much.

Alisha: If you want any of the videos separately off my website, I can give you links to them. Definitely, uh, include Kim’s talk like Mr. Rogers, you know, the whole dog journal. I’ll send you that link.

I think that narrating is really critical for us to explain to our dogs what’s going on in the environment. Yeah, I would say narrating that has probably been the biggest game changer. Amy’s management for reactive dogs and then Kim’s narrating. I would say those are the two [01:12:00] things that are part of my daily life and I can give you resources for all of that.

Jessica: I would love that. And we’ll make sure that we get all of that in the show notes. And also when we share the social media, I’ll make sure that we get those links in there as well. I agree. I think those are fantastic resources that a lot of people are gonna find helpful.

Alisha: Thank you so much for this opportunity, and I know we had to reschedule a couple times and I think today was the best day to do it.

I agree. It worked out perfectly. Thank you.

Jessica: Hey listeners, if you found this podcast helpful, there are a few different ways you can support the show. First, you can subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you’re feeling extra awesome, you can also rate and review the show to make it easier for other people to find it. Thanks for being here, and I’ll see you next time.