Join my mailing list for free resources on dog behavior and training, and be the first to know when new events become available.

What happens when you get two behavior consultants and long time friends talking dogs, behavior, and life? In this episode, I talk with Michael Shikashio CDBC on a wide range of topics, while getting a bit philosophical along the way. Hear us discuss:

• How he differentiates reactivity and aggression
• Thresholds in behavior
• Why empathy is so important with clients (and everyone)
• My recent move to Germany
• Living through Hurricane Helene
• Why Mike can’t participate in discussions on sports at the barber shop
• And so much more

About Michael:

Michael Shikashio, CDBC, is the founder of AggressiveDog.com and focuses on
teaching other professionals from around the world on how to successfully work
aggression cases. He is a five-term president of the International Association of Animal
Behavior Consultants (IAABC) and was the Association of Professional Dog Trainers
(APDT) Member of the Year in 2020.
Michael is sought after for his expert opinion by numerous media outlets, including the
New York Times, New York Post, Fox News, USA Today, The List TV, Baltimore Sun,
WebMD, Women’s Health Magazine, Real Simple Magazine, SiriusXM Radio, The
Chronicle of the Dog, and Steve Dale’s Pet World. He also hosts the popular podcast
show “The Bitey End of the Dog” where he chats with the foremost experts on dog
aggression.
He has been a featured keynote speaker at conferences, universities, and seminars in
more than 200 cities and 20 different countries around the world, and offers a variety of
educational opportunities on the topic of canine aggression, including the Aggression in
Dogs Master Course and the annual Aggression in Dogs Conference.

Website
School
Facebook Business
Instagram
YouTube
Podcast

Transcript

Michael: Hey,

Jessica: Mike.

Michael: Hey, how you doing?

Jessica: I’m good. As I was getting ready for this, I realized because I’m in my mom’s apartment, and I’m in a total, transitionary place and she’s got like hardwood floors and everything was a little echoy. So I moved a bunch of rugs in here and try to move as many things in here as possible so that way it wasn’t as echoy.

Michael: It sounds okay.

Jessica: I’m not too worried about it. I thought, you know what, if it’s not, the best audio we’ve ever heard in our lives, we’re gonna live to see another day. It’s not matter. So yeah. It sounds

Michael: totally fine. Yeah. Like nice work on the layout of sound absorbing.

Michael: That’s awesome. That’s when you know, you’re taking it to the next level. You like worry about echoing, pulling rugs into the room.

Jessica: It was only because I realized after recording the intro to my last podcast episode that I thought, okay, this sounds really weird, and [00:01:00] I’m using all the same equipment.

Jessica: So I was like, it has to be the room. So then I’m in here and I’m just sitting on the floor with some pillows and this is what we were doing.

Michael: It sounds just fine.

Michael: How did it go

Michael: with the travels and everything? Was that like pretty smooth?

Jessica: I mean, ugh, I mean, okay, so I did it by myself, right? Yeah. So two animals. All of my luggage, oh God.

Jessica: Trying to do it on my own, just physically being able to make sure I’m meeting the needs of my dog and not overwhelming him. He is never been inside of an airport before. I would say he was in total champ. I thought, we’re gonna walk in this airport, he’s gonna get really overwhelmed and I’m gonna have to carry him, or he’ll have to go in his carrier or something.

Jessica: I’m like, he won’t feel comfortable walking around. Total opposite, he was with me the whole time. In fact when I was doing this, really long check-in at the counter I just dropped the leash and he’s just standing there. He is not going anywhere. I, not that he would anyways, but yeah, just could take my eyes off of him.

Jessica: He was like, okay, this is just what we do all the time. He walked through the whole airport with me through security, [00:02:00] everything. I couldn’t believe it. I was like, wow. And then on the plane he had to go under the seat and it didn’t make a peep. Everybody was like, wait, you have a dog there?

Jessica: And I’m like, yeah. So he was great, but that’s how he is. The cat on the other hand was pissed. He did not wanna be in the carrier, and I knew he wouldn’t want to be in the carrier, because I did a lot of test runs with him in the carrier.

Jessica: I knew the moment he got out of it, he would be fine. So I knew this is gonna be stressful for you, but. What option do I have? The only option he has was my friend whose farm I was living on, said he could live here, but he’d have to stay as an outdoor barn cat. And I mean, he’s curled up on the bed right now, he likes to be outside, but he also, wants to be inside and he likes his family and everything.

Jessica: And so I was like, okay, you’re just gonna come with me to Germany and I know that the travel itself will be very stressful for you. But I think you’re gonna be fine once you get out of the carrier. And I was right the second you let him outta the carrier and then he got in the apartment, he was like, this is cool.

Jessica: That’s real cool. Like he, he didn’t hide or [00:03:00] anything and he was not like that guy anyways, he’s not like that. He’s like a dog. He was everywhere. Within the next day, or maybe even the first day, he was already off the balcony, venturing around the garden that’s in the back of this apartment complex.

Michael: That’d

Michael: be so nerve wracking for me, like knowing Hey, where’s the cat? What’s the cat doing? What’s happening outside? It’s

Jessica: yeah, I was too, I really was at first.

Jessica: ’cause I thought, okay, we just got here. And I thought for sure he’d wanna stay in the apartment for a while, there’s no way he’s gonna wanna go out right away. No, he had a different plan different plan. I have been here many times ’cause my mom has lived here for 12 years.

Jessica: My brother has an apartment downstairs. So I know this area very well. I’ve spent a lot of time here. It’s a very. Safe place. We’re on a cul-de-sac. It’s not traffic. There’s a huge fenced yard outside.

Jessica: That’s below all the units that we have access to. I was really nervous at first until I realized that he could find his way home and had no problems with it.

Michael: It’s good to hear They’re settling in really well.

Jessica: They’re settling in well, yes. [00:04:00] Yeah. Yes.

Michael: Nice.

Jessica: Okay. Fun. All right. All right. Cool. Cool. Okay. Are you ready?

Michael: Yeah. I was thinking just free flowing. Balancing things back and forth.

Jessica: Yeah. I like it.

Jessica: Okay. Mike, I am really excited that you are coming on my podcast today because I have been on your podcast twice and this is gonna be fun having the tables turned a little bit.

Michael: Yeah. I’m so looking forward to this conversation because we’ve always had good conversations on my podcast, but now I get to hear some questions from you and hope we can bounce some questions back off to your end as well, because I wanna get into the nuances. Of this topic. I think that’s something that’ll be fun for the listeners.

Jessica: Yeah, exactly. And so for the listeners today, Mike and I are going to do something a little bit different compared to some other episodes. We are gonna do a little bit of picking each other’s brains and as Mike said, getting into some of the nuances that we think would be really [00:05:00] valuable for everyone.

Jessica: And we’re also gonna talk about some personal stuff because I think it’s always a good idea for people to recognize that we are all human and sometimes we don’t get to always show these other sides of ourselves publicly. So that was also another part that I wanted to include.

Michael: Looking forward to jumping in.

Jessica: Mike, I know that you are an expert in aggression and you know your whole website, it’s aggressive dog.com. You have so many fantastic resources for both pet professionals and pet parents for help with their dogs who have aggression issues. And I do a lot of reactivity things, and I’m wondering if you could help us understand how you differentiate the labels of aggressive and reactive.

Michael: This is such a good question for the industry. I think because so many people use those labels. So we both use labels. [00:06:00] Like I use the label of aggressive dog, aggressive dog.com. However, I actually remind my clients, I never. Give that label to the dog, although I advertise that name. Yeah.

Michael: ’cause people search for that. But then I make sure I clarify for my clients and my students that there is really no such thing as an aggressive dog. There’s things called aggressive behaviors that some dogs might display in certain contexts, and that’s important. So I go right back to the behaviors, the barking, the lunging, the growling, snarling, snapping, biting behaviors that people find undesirable and they want to change those or help the dog for the reasons that are causing those behaviors in the first place.

Michael: So I look at leash reactivity, or even just the term reactivity. Sort of in the same lens. For me, it’s a label, but it’s describing something that’s happening that we can observe behaviors we’re seeing that we might label that, and I think it’s a softer word too, than saying, oh, my dog’s aggressive.

Michael: Right? Maybe my dog’s reactive. And for some of my clients, they find [00:07:00] it’s easier to let that roll off their tongue and feel better about their dog. But the much of the behaviors can look the same. So barking, lunging, growling, starling snapping. Maybe not biting all the time. I think that’s a, that’s the delineation for some trainers that they might say, oh, if the dog doesn’t bite, then they’re reactive.

Michael: If they bite, then they’re aggressive. Which, there’s an argument about that. I think it’s the behaviors that we want to focus on. So you could technically use either label in a lot of different contexts. Right. And a lot of different observations. You could ask 10 trainers and you might get 10 different labels.

Michael: So for me it’s always boiling back to, okay, let’s call it whatever you want. Right? And people are gonna search for that. And it’s fine to have the labels, but let’s make sure we’re helping the dog by focusing on them. They, the behaviors are not putting them into some category that might be problematic in the future.

Jessica: Yeah. I would say I do things very similar as you, where I use the label reactivity a lot, or I’ll reference something. My client contacted me with their reactive dog, so I use the same thing [00:08:00] and. I will use that because it is a word that most people know.

Jessica: And also because I work so much with the general public and pet parents, that’s something that they relate to. And so for that reason, I tend to use that label because I think it just helps ’em understand what we’re talking about. But I do think it’s really important for us as dog professionals to help educate, the PA parents out there of how to really describe their dog’s behavior in a way that’s actually helpful for us as dog professionals.

Jessica: So that way we can better help them. So maybe we could start with this. So let’s say somebody is listening and they have a dog and they don’t know if the dog is displaying again, in quotes, aggression or quotes, reactive behaviors, and. They send us an email my dog is aggressive and, and I need help.

Jessica: One of the [00:09:00] things that could be more helpful for us is understanding what that behavior actually looks like. And I know that’s something that I will ask my clients when we have conversations so that I can get that information. But I’m wondering if we could start with that. How could we help pet parents better understand how to actually describe their dog’s behavior without the labels?

Michael: Yeah, that I, that’s such a good question because it’s one that we often struggle getting that information out sometimes from clients. So queuing them or giving them some sort of prompts, so to speak is helpful. So one of the things I start with is, what did you see? And then I give them prompts, like, how far away were you?

Michael: What was the person doing? What was the other dog doing? What did you do when your dog displayed that behavior? So it starts to break down the details. When you ask more objective questions, not, how do you think your dog was feeling? Or, what was your dog’s emotional experience?

Michael: Right. What are they thinking about for tomorrow? So those kind of questions are really open-ended and can be interpreted so many ways. And then I also find [00:10:00] prompting them with actual visual pictures. Did your dog bark? At the person when they’re 20 yards away, did they lunge?

Michael: Did they pull on leash? And did you see their weight move forward? And their ears move forward. So paint a picture for them. It’s sort of like when I talk about resource guarding cases, you might be like, does your dog resource guard anything? And some people will like, yeah.

Michael: And some be like, what does that mean? And so it doesn’t give them a description of what it looks like. So I tend to paint the picture and give them visual examples and then see where they go from there in terms of the description. ’cause sometimes they go back to. Using those real heavy labels. Like I think he’s just stubborn or he’s just trying to protect me or, right.

Michael: And what does it look like when he is trying to protect you? Where does he stand? Where’s his head? And all those things can really help cue the client. Is that something you do?

Jessica: Yeah, I do. I will often ask my clients what does your dog look like when they are reacting? Because then they can better describe, he’s pulling towards the other dog.

Jessica: He’s staring at the other [00:11:00] dog, he’s barking. If we get closer, then sometimes he starts growling and they’ll describe, the hackles being up on the dog’s back, that sort of stuff. So it is helpful for me to get that picture of what it looks like and. The other thing that I also tend to want to clarify with my clients whose dogs have leash reactivity is when they describe their dog going over threshold or having a reaction.

Jessica: What I find interesting is that sometimes they will say, even if their dog just starts to look at a dog for more than a few seconds, then they will describe that as well. That’s when they start to have a reaction and. Technically, yeah, there’s some changes in the dog’s behavior, right? The dog is increasing in intensity.

Jessica: I think that’s obvious, but when I see the dog in person or see a video of the dog and I think, oh, this is interesting because that is actually [00:12:00] still a time where you can work with your dog. I wouldn’t necessarily describe them as being completely over a threshold in which they are unable to really process what we’re asking of them and that nuance there in terms of what their dog does when they first see a dog.

Jessica: Compared to I, full blown reaction, sometimes I find that my clients. I don’t wanna say that they get that confused, but it can be a scenario where they think that’s reactivity and, oh gosh. I feel like we’re really getting in the weeds here with this, and I don’t know if I’m being particularly clear.

Jessica: But I think there’s a difference between a dog noticing another dog and being really interested in the other dog and maybe even pulling towards the other dog, but then still being able to call the dog away or redirect them or do something. There’s a difference between that. And then when you completely lose them there is a threshold there.

Jessica: Somewhere between those two spaces.

Michael: Let’s unpack that a little bit more because threshold is a very common term we hear, especially [00:13:00] in work with aggression or really any behavior issues and there’s different definitions. We could look at thresholds from a behavioral sense or neurological sense.

Michael: There’s different definitions of thresholds out there, but when we’re thinking about behavior, we’re often saying, okay, it’s the point at which the dog starts barking, lunging, growling, maybe hard staring. And I think a lot of clients struggle with that, or, and even trainers, they struggle with that because they’re not sure, okay, what actually is the threshold?

Michael: Because for each dog is gonna be different. It could be the point you were just mentioning. The dog is staring at the thing. And we have to decide, do we wanna let the dog see the thing and process that information? Or is this dog getting to the point of they’re going to escalate very quickly and spill over into the barking or, the quote unquote reactive behaviors.

Michael: So what do you do there, how do you help break it down for both clients and trainers? What is, what’s your definition of threshold and then how do you help them differentiate about when the dog may be over threshold or not?

Jessica: Oh, this is a great topic and I did do a really fantastic [00:14:00] episode that’s going to come out this season with Sarah Shapiro Ward, who Oh, amazing. She wrote the threshold article for your website and I read it on your website and I immediately emailed her. I thought, brilliant. I need to talk to this woman. And she’s just as brilliant in conversation. So it’s such a fantastic episode. So I’m just, gonna put a little plug in there ’cause that’s coming out this season.

Jessica: Fantastic. And, but when I think of thresholds, I think of them as being a very large every evolving point and. What I tell my clients, I just say, it’s the point in which your dog’s behavior changes. But that can be many things, right? It could be an imaginary line or a moment in time when their behavior goes from one thing to another.

Jessica: And when I’m trying to help my clients understand in the context of when we think of keeping a dog under a threshold, or if they might go over a threshold in which their dog might [00:15:00] become more intense in their behavior. Then. To give that example of what you were saying, if the dog is just watching the other dog and what if that dog just wanted to process seeing that other dog?

Jessica: That is a nuance that I think doesn’t always get talked about enough because a lot of times in the dog training world, people will say, if the dog is staring for more than three seconds, nothing good will come of that. And you need to redirect them immediately. And my own dog, who is not reactive but is very interested in other dogs, he will actually wanna stare at other dogs for quite some time when we go past one.

Jessica: And I usually pull off to the side and I just let him do it because. For my dog, what I look for as like a measurement or like a metric in terms of should I allow this to continue or should I not is what happens if you do. And what happens is that he just continues to watch the dog and he’s very interested and maybe he’s hoping that [00:16:00] they might be interested in him and wanna interact and maybe they’re not and that’s okay too.

Jessica: And then he just gives it up and then he walks on. And so I don’t really do a whole lot in that scenario actually. I just let him do it. Granted, my dog who does this is 14 pounds, so he’s on the smaller side.

Jessica: He’s not particularly threatening to dogs. And if I saw that another dog became uncomfortable with that, I would move him along. But he also has some pretty good body language as he’s noticing, you could tell that he’s like curious and it’s a kind of a very happy kind of look.

Jessica: And so the question is well what happens if you just allow your dog to continue noticing the other dog? What happens then? If the dog can process it on their own, the vast majority of the time, I would say it’d probably just allow the dog to do that. But there’s many other dogs where if you do allow them to stare for more than a few seconds, that actually is the indicator that they are going to go over another threshold into full on reaction.

Jessica: So a lot of this has to do with knowing your dog and really observing your dog because. [00:17:00] We cannot have an exact recipe for thresholds and dogs because every dog is different, and it’s impossible for us to say, when this happens, do this because it can’t apply to all dogs and every situation out there.

Jessica: But what does apply to all dogs is knowing your dog and knowing what those changes in body language mean for your dog. I think that is the question that people should be asking and looking for the answer there.

Michael: Yes, exactly. It’s so individual to the dog and I think much has to do with, obviously knowing your dog, but tracking the data that you’re seeing, and are you seeing a decrease in frequency or increase in frequency?

Michael: Are you looking at increases in intensity or decreases, depending on how far you are away, or what the intensity of the other dog was? But what do you think about how much that impacts us as trainers or even. The [00:18:00] guardians that are out there and they’ve had multiple dogs, or maybe some other dogs have done this, it can really skew our perception because let’s say trainers worked, 50 reactivity cases and 40 of those, the dogs were always like, okay, once we see something, we’re gonna stare at it for 2.5 seconds and then we go, we’re gonna go off.

Michael: Right? But another trainer might have got lucky enough, 40 dogs that can stare at things to process it at the same distance. So it’s gonna really skew their perception, how they approach cases. So you do a lot of mentorship, and do you see that sometimes where some trainers might be really hesitant and you kind have to push them to this, your dogs can actually do this.

Michael: Or the opposite, where they’re pushing things too much and how do you pick up on that if you’ve seen it before?

Jessica: Yeah, I do see that a lot. And you’re right, we tend to make decisions about how we are going to approach our training with the dog based off of our own experiences. And then therefore we tend to have a bias in a certain direction of hey, this has worked for me, so I’m [00:19:00] going to gravitate towards that again.

Jessica: And I always try to encourage my students to be really open because there is always going to be a dog that does not fit that mold. And if they don’t have other ways of addressing this for this dog or helping this dog, then they’re gonna get really. Stuck and that is often most of my consulting with other trainers is when they’re getting these tricky reactivity cases and it doesn’t fit the mold of what they had seen before.

Jessica: And then they just don’t necessarily know what direction to go or if the direction that they are taking is maybe the most effective. Approach for that particular dog. And I think that’s all it really comes down to from trainers. They know how to train. That’s never been a problem for most of my students.

Jessica: Yeah. Some of them will train behaviors way better than I can because they have more experience in another realm of dog training than I do. So they know how to train the dog. I [00:20:00] think it’s always a question without an exact recipe of, okay, now this, but then this.

Jessica: That’s where trainers get stuck in those scenarios of knowing what next step to take.

Michael: I see the same thing. Sometimes I have a trainer reach out, they just want a second set of eyes on a case. And yeah sometimes, you get stuck based on your past experiences.

Michael: There’s a hesitancy to push things or move forward. So definitely something I’ve seen and that’s why I love the specialties, right? So like your specialty is least reactivity and you’re gonna see those nuances. So I always recommend to trainers or clients, get that second opinion or just find somebody that really has worked.

Michael: So many cases, those nuances just come out and it’s really cool to see that though. I know we’re working on the course or we have just launched that course where we’ve got specialists in dog to human, dog to dog resource guarding, and the nuances really shine when somebody specializes.

Michael: So if you’re a trainer listening in, think about specializing because you just get [00:21:00] so much better at it. And you pick up on little things that you wouldn’t have seen if you’re taking all kinds of cases. Right?

Jessica: Yeah, getting into those nuances and being able to spot them because we simply have seen them somewhere else.

Jessica: Yeah, and I think that’s also another thing that I would always encourage trainers to do. And even pet parents, if they’re on their own journey with their dog, and they’re getting some success, is being open to trying some different things, even if it wasn’t necessarily what you thought.

Jessica: Because having just more tools under your belt to know, okay, in this scenario I could do this. In this scenario, I could do this. There’s so many different ways, to approach training. In my experience, sometimes it’s even something as simple as changing the manner in which they’re delivering the reinforcement to the dog that can make the biggest difference in the world.

Jessica: That is something that I have found that I really enjoyed doing over the last several years. I did some workshops with some sport dog trainers and, they really take the cake when it [00:22:00] comes to being extremely proficient in reinforcement procedures. Compared to other areas of dog training, they really understand reinforcement and building behavior that is like what they do best.

Jessica: And so I have learned some really neat things from sport dog trainers and specifically how you’re delivering the reinforcement and how that influences the dog’s behavior. And so sometimes when I’m working a case, it’s just as simple as, hey, the dog is getting a little bit stuck after you’re marking the dog for maybe noticing the other dog on the walk and because they’re feeding the dog straight to the mouth, so why don’t you just mark and toss it straight forward?

Jessica: And then it just immediately solves the issue for them which is getting more movement from the dog, get more engagement from the dog, decrease the intensity. It’s just as simple as where they place the food. That’s the only change that they make. But I know that I didn’t learn that sort of stuff, until I mean, I learned some different types of reinforcement procedures, but [00:23:00] I definitely got into it a lot more over the last five or six years.

Jessica: But earlier in my career I didn’t know that. So I think it also depends on where people are learning from. There’s a lot of people that still only feed to the mouth or they’ll do a treat scatter, and that’s like the only two ways that they’ll deliver food rewards. And there’s so many different ways to deliver food rewards and you can get into some really cool applications of it and that can make a really big difference on the dog’s response.

Michael: Yeah, totally. , I’ve been really lucky and fortunate to have so many moments in my life that in my dog training growth that have impacted how I work.

Michael: Aggression cases that have shifted how I do it. Moving from using Aversives to doing what I do now, were definitely pivotal moments. Realizing the work with people is so important and changing how I approach conversations with people and with much more empathy.

Michael: And not just going in like analytically, which I’m totally guilty of before, I’m just going in and spewing out words and instructions without really taking into account the client’s emotional needs and things like [00:24:00] that. Let’s talk about that. Yeah. So what are some other things that have shifted?

Michael: Obviously learning from other trainers is crucial, highly important. Because if we get stuck in our little echo chambers or boxes, we’re not gonna expand much or grow much. We might get really good at what we’re doing, but it doesn’t help us, get creative and think outside the box sometimes.

Michael: So what do you think? What are some moments in your career?

Jessica: Ooh, I can think of a few. So one thing that I remember thinking when you’re saying, just being open to seeing different things. I had a friend who was training in Tzen and back then it was called Tzen. I think now it’s the change the name. Many times I think it’s IPO.

Jessica: If I’m wrong, somebody send me an email and tell me so I can correct it. And I went out to the club because they would train together. And so I just wanted to see okay what does this look like?

Jessica: That was so far removed from anything I had experience in, because this was when I was a [00:25:00] very much a baby trainer. I probably only had three or four years in under my belt. And so to go to something like that was, very intimidating. But I was there because I wanted to see how my friend did it.

Jessica: And again, I just wanted to be open to seeing things. And, one of the things that took me by surprise was the level of engagement that they could get from their dogs. Using toys. That was a big one for me, where I was like, wow, I. Don’t really know any of the positive reinforcement trainers that I had worked with at that time that were using toys, specifically tug and some fetch as effectively as these other trainers were, even though they were also using a lot of other methods at the same time, I will say I thought damn, I gotta give it to them for that because that was actually quite impressive.

Jessica: So it started to make me think more about, other ways that you can reinforce dogs besides food. So that was a big one for me to see.

Jessica: It also allowed me to see things that I wouldn’t necessarily do. I saw some applications of clicker training mixed with [00:26:00] corrections on a prong collar all at the same time. I remember this one Rottweiler teaching them how to heal correct prong, click treat, correct prong click treat.

Jessica: And I thought, okay, that’s interesting. Never seen that before. And so it’s also disinteresting when you watch that because then you can take away what you would not want to apply, in your own practice.

Jessica: That was one thing that popped in my head when you asked that question. I think another thing that’s helped me think of things more differently was I had some cases with dogs who really struggled outside of the home and I was wondering, okay, what could I do to make the environment different for the dog? And so at that point, I started looking at the world differently, like the physical world that we live in and the different surfaces that we have and what do we have available, to us. And I started just to view it with a different lens.

Jessica: And it was then when I started to have the dogs engage more with the world differently, that [00:27:00] I saw a really big change in their behavior. So a lot of this was like, people will call it natural agility, where you’re out and about in the world and you get your dog walking on retaining walls or just putting their paws up on a bench or hopping up on a table.

Jessica: Different things like that. Not like crazy parkour where you’re having the dog walking on a tight rope. I mean, we’re not doing that. This is like very pet dog level. But that has been a game changer for a lot of my reactive dog clients. And it’s something that I teach in a lot of different ways of how can we change the environment for the dog and make how the dog interacts with the environment different than what they are used to. Compared to then let’s only try to change the dog’s behavior. That’s something that we tend to focus so much on. It’s, let’s just focus on the dog.

Jessica: But then we’re leaving out this whole component of the environment itself and what we could either add to that environment or just utilize what’s already in the environment to our advantage. So [00:28:00] along those lines, essentially what I do is teach a lot of environmental cues. This bench means this part means this.

Jessica: Especially if there’s different things that are consistent in that dog’s environment, and that’s been really fun and that has been something that I found hugely helpful for both the human end and then also the dog end.

Michael: Do you find that it gives the opportunity for the dog to have, we see a lot of buzzwords, agency choice and control and empowerment and things like that, which are all really important concepts, it’s almost like you’re giving the dog a little sense of control in that environment.

Michael: Oh, I can, I see this bench and I can go over there because my garden’s gonna walk over there. Do you find that helps in your cases a lot?

Jessica: I do. I think that is part of it. And I think it’s also the visual component of it for the dog, because a lot of reactive dogs tend to be pretty hypervigilant, right?

Jessica: They like to keep their eyes on the environment to see when they’re gonna expect another dog or a person or whatever it is that they have reactions to. They wanna be looking out for [00:29:00] that. So it’s almost teaching them just to look for something else. What else is in this environment that you could look forward to and anticipate.

Jessica: And so I think it also helps in that regard. I just have theories about this I don’t know if there’s any studies on this type of stuff but I think there’s something to dogs touching different. Parts of their bodies to things and different surfaces.

Jessica: I think of course, if it’s new to the dog they’re gonna process that differently in their brain. This is not my area of specialty, so I always try to be very careful with my words, but I think that part of what happens is that the dog originally just leaves the house and they only walk on the sidewalk, or it’s only this, they never experience the world differently.

Jessica: And then when we start to do these sorts of things of let’s climb on something, let’s get on a different surface that maybe your positive never even touched before. Or we’re using different parts of your body. I think that now the [00:30:00] dog is, of course they’re having a different experience, but I think that then therefore their brain is having a different experience and it’s almost changing the context of it for the dog.

Jessica: And so then therefore I’m able to more easily kinda modify their behavior away from, these old patterns of being really hyper fixated on other things in their environment, able to do other things. It’s just so much easier to get them to engage with me. Yes. And I don’t know exactly what’s going on inside of the dog’s body. All I know is just anecdotally that I have worked with some dogs that i’m their third, fourth, fifth trainer. They can’t get the dog to even pay attention outside. I just start breaking it down and I start doing stuff like that and I start weaving that into my training plan and boom, I’ve got a dog that’s all about engaging with me and eating and training. And all I did was just change how we interacted with the environment.

Michael: I think you’re so onto something here because in just the last couple years, I’m seeing so many more people [00:31:00] talk about it, in interoception different perceptions of dogs.

Michael: Yeah. And tactile feedback. And I know Sarah Fisher’s doing a lot of great work with movement. She has a background in like physiotherapy and for humans and dogs. And so it’s really cool to see, what you’re talking about being applied, is it because the dog’s not comfortable, just like people, if we’re on a certain surface, or just the safety of a certain environment practicing handstands.

Michael: Would you rather do that on concrete or would you rather do that like on a padded sort of surface, like a gymnastic mat? And we don’t think about that for dogs. I think though we’re getting to the point, we’re gonna be able to start tracking that. I picked up one of those pet paste collars and it measures all of your metrics, this the whoop device that you guys listening and can’t see it, but it’s this thing I’m wearing that tells you.

Michael: Just about everything going on with your body. It’s a little bit scary now because this newest version tracks your heart rate viability, your resting heart rate, your stress levels. This one tracks blood pressure. Your EKG, it’s a little bit wild [00:32:00] because it also tells you your biological age, which I won’t say mine ’cause it’s a little disappointing right now.

Michael: But it tracks like how, your VO two max, your physical fitness level, how often you work out like it. It’s wild. So some of the collar coming out now are tracking some of the same metrics. So what you can see is times of day when you’re more stressed right? So you have I don’t know, a stressful day in traffic.

Michael: This thing will actually tell you, Hey, your heart rate was up. Your levels were up. So imagine that for dogs and then you go out, we tracking this and we can see. Is this dog really doing better? And is it because of what they’re doing in the environment or is it because of the location or is it because of the substrate they’re on?

Michael: Or is it, who knows? We can look at all those variables. I think we’re so close to having game changing technology that’ll really take it to the next level and show us like what you’re talking about is actually working. ’cause now we’re gonna be able to physiologically measure these things.

Michael: Not just, and I shouldn’t say not just, but ’cause we often just rely on behavior and body language. Right? Yeah. And [00:33:00] as for making our calls of about what to do next, but imagine if we have the information from a biological level that can help us make those calls. So anyways, I’m excited about the next couple years and the technology that’s available to, for dogs for sure.

Jessica: Yeah, me too. I think that would give us so much more information of whether we are actually doing what we are intending to do. Yes.

Michael: Yeah. ’cause we think we’re doing a lot of things, a lot of times and we see it all the time on social media. Like people think, oh, this is what’s working, but is it really?

Michael: And there’s a lot of arguments about that, but once you start tracking the data, the science doesn’t lie, so at least it tries not to. Yeah.

Jessica: Yes. So I’m gonna turn the table. So tell me about some of the more pivotal moments over your career, things that you experienced that made you start to think about doing things differently.

Michael: For me it’s been the clients, ’cause one of the things that we struggle with is when we feel like we failed a [00:34:00] case or something doesn’t go right, or the dog bites again, or something happens. And those moments can really make you. Question your ability, that imposter syndrome comes in.

Michael: And that’s a challenge because we talk about it, but not a lot of our clients are gonna be aware of it. A lot of new trainers aren’t aware of it when they come into the field of that stuff sneaking up on you ’cause you have disappointments. It’s, we’re not fixing refrigerators here where we say, okay, this is fixed or not.

Michael: You have so many other professions and jobs out there careers. There’s an end product or something that we say, okay, it’s fixed, or it’s completed. But with dog behavior, it’s never like that. So you could feel like something’s going well, then three years later you get a call and something really bad happens, or a change happens or you work with a client, you think things are going well during the work with them and something falls apart, or so for me it’s, that was a not, I guess one is one pivotal moment, but it’s been what’s really [00:35:00] changed my outlook over the years and learning about empathy and patience and resiliency for not only yourself, but for the dogs and the clients.

Michael: I, I think it’s part of the human equation that I had no idea what I was doing before. I was like, not emotionally intelligent at all when I first started this work. So if I was gonna say anything that’s changed me in my work, it’s been that it’s just, learning how to definitely learning how to be more empathetic and understanding with people, and I think working with the dogs, I think the second most influential part, again, it probably didn’t happen in with one particular time, moment, or timestamp, but over the course of years is.

Michael: You see enough dogs that are struggling, barking, lunging, trying to bite you, and it’s easy to take offense to that at first. If you spend your first few months and you can’t even pet a dog, it’s tough, and like all the dogs are basically telling you to go away. That can be challenging too, because a lot of the other types of work, you might be working with puppies, at least you can [00:36:00] love up on the dogs once in a while.

Michael: But sometimes the work we do is you can’t get close to a dog for a while. And that’s challenging too. So what that does also is help you think about what the dogs are going through, because that’s part of our coping mechanisms as well. It’s wait a minute. It’s just like when we talk to people in the world and the relationships we have with people, we can go through life being like, that person’s a jerk.

Michael: Or that other person’s just, they’re criticizing me and they’re yelling at me, and they’re the bad one. And the same thing can happen when we look at dogs and we see people do that with dogs. We see, even see trainers saying, okay, this dog’s being stubborn or dominant, we have to put it in its place kind of viewpoints and the same thing people do with each other.

Michael: I’ve shifted over time quite a bit, is that the dogs have really helped me understand people. Social media’s a great example of this, right? Everybody listening has had somebody troll them on social media. Even if you have like only a few friends, you’ve probably seen a lot of negative comments.

Michael: I. And my work with dogs has really helped me [00:37:00] understand that side of people is that there’s, they’re just going through something themselves. They’re having a tough day themselves. Probably they’re having their life experiences, their traumas, their, their relationships are unpacking it and it’s really got nothing to do with me most of the time.

Michael: It’s just what they’re going through. So their equivalent of growling might be that negative comment to you, or you might be talking to somebody and they’re even in a close relationship you might have, and they’re saying things to you or saying things that might be impolite or critical or even worse in some cases.

Michael: The first thing I always go to is trying to understand the cause of it. So what is this person going through? What is the dog going through? Are they in pain? Are they having a lot of stressors throughout the day? Did they have negative experiences growing up? You can go down a rabbit hole?

Michael: Those stuff, is it just how they were raised their attachments with the par or whatever, when you start really diving deep into it, it puts you in such a better place because it doesn’t affect you as much. You [00:38:00] start to understand what they’re going through and you start to process it differently so you’re not taking offense to it anymore.

Michael: So if I have somebody yell at me on social media, it’s just like, all right, this person’s having a bad day. They’re influenced and we see it a lot. They’re influenced by sometimes really influential people and they’re saying, this is the philosophy or this is the messaging that we need to put out there, and I need to copy that ’cause it seems right.

Michael: And you’ll see that. And that’s okay because I. We’re all doing the same, right? We’re all doing it with the messaging we learn and what we experience. Yeah I would say those are probably the two most significant changes or impacts that I’ve had in the time I’ve been doing this.

Michael: What about you? What have reactive dogs taught you about yourself the most?

Jessica: That’s a good question. I’m gonna have to think about that for just a moment.

Michael: It’s deep. I know, but I like where we’re going with this.

Jessica: Yeah. I’m gonna answer this [00:39:00] in a few different ways. So I think one of the things that I. Reactive dogs taught me, which is also why I am so drawn to them, is because they’re so misunderstood. And what you see, you just see this snippet of them, right? Just this little snippet of their behavior. In one context, they’re out on leash, they’re seeing their arch and nemesis across the street, they’re losing their shit and everybody is oh my gosh, what a terrible dog.

Jessica: And they just wanna, put all this negative associations to that dog because of their behavior. And what they don’t see is the dog in many other contexts, being at home, being like super silly, with its owners and zooming around and maybe even having a housemate of another dog that they really love to play with.

Jessica: And so I think that reactive dogs tend to be judged very harshly out in the world. And. [00:40:00] People don’t really ever take the time to really get to know who they really are. And that is something that really draws me to them because I really love getting to know reactive dogs and unpacking, them as individuals and seeing how they are in many different contexts because just because you see one piece of their behavior, it doesn’t mean that they’re that way as a whole.

Jessica: Just like you said at the beginning of our conversation that it’s not an aggressive dog. It just displays aggressive behaviors at times. And I think that’s that difference for that. And I feel like. The people who have reactive dogs don’t often receive a lot of empathy either from the general public, people give them dirty looks, they say mean things to them.

Jessica: Get control of your dog, all that sort of stuff. And these are people that are trying like, really freaking hard. Vast majority of people that are out there walking reactive dogs are not [00:41:00] being negligent. There are some, but the vast majority are not. And that is often how I tend to just view the world and also move through life, is I do think the vast majority of anything is one way.

Jessica: And it’s only just a couple of bad actors or, things that, that really are that way. It’s not necessarily representative as a whole. And also, very similar to you when it comes to things that we see on social media, I feel like the vast majority of us are all thinking and feeling the same way about dogs and training.

Jessica: And that there’s just some people who have, some really loud voices and they tend to say things and they get a lot of attention. So it seems like there’s a bigger part of that than there really is. I don’t know if that answers your question in terms of what have they taught me about myself, but I do tie that into a lot of how I [00:42:00] view the world, how I treat people, how I treat dogs is that, for the most part, I always want to go with this person probably has really good intentions.

Jessica: Like you said, they’re just having a bad day. Or whatever that might be. If somebody cuts me off in traffic, even though sometimes I might get agitated or maybe I don’t have the bandwidth to be the person I want to be in that moment. But I think many times I do try to think, wow, okay, they’re really in a rush.

Jessica: Gosh, that sucks ’cause I’m not so they must be having a worse day than I am already. I just try to maybe think of some things that way. In terms of how I move through the world.

Michael: Yeah. And that we have to remember that the dogs are not gonna be perfect, right?

Michael: So when people have these expectations of the no reactivity ever happening again. It’s just like having an expectation of a person never getting upset regardless of how many times they’re cut off in traffic or somebody flips them, the bird. Right. One thing I was thinking of too is [00:43:00] what you’re working with the guardian’s experience out there, meaning the type of work you’re doing is the most likely where somebody’s going to have a lot of criticism thrown their way, meaning the dirty looks, the words, the who’s training, who kind of comments and.

Michael: Much more so than any other kind of case usually, unless it’s somebody that’s like living with the dog and there’s lots of people, visiting or maybe it’s owner directed aggression, but you’re working in a way that there’s a high potential for it, feeling like it’s reflective on the person, meaning that person’s going to take offense and feel like it’s them sometimes.

Michael: So their dog might be getting criticized, but it’s really often them getting criticized. So how do you help your clients navigate that where you know they’re feeling really bad, either because they think it’s them causing their dog’s problems, or they’re mad at their dog because they’re embarrassing them as the guardian.

Michael: So there’s that dynamic of I’m sure where people like embarrassed [00:44:00] about it, which also probably affects how much often they’re gonna work with the dog, how do you help your clients with that?

Jessica: Yeah, I will say that I. Have learned so much about how to work with people and that the better I got at working with people, the better success I had in all of my cases.

Jessica: And that is such a huge thing that I take into every client that I work with. And maybe a good way to describe it is I just meet them wherever they’re at. I don’t go in with any judgements. I spend a lot of time listening to them without really ever saying anything except for asking more questions.

Jessica: I try to be really careful with how I word things. I’m actually have gotten very good at that over the years is how can I phrase something in a way where I can get my point across and make sure it’s really clear, but in a way where I don’t think that the person will take offense to this or think that I’m somehow, blaming them or anything.

Jessica: So I’ve gotten [00:45:00] very good at my words and. I think that really helps my clients. And I think, some other things that help my clients trust me is I try to get to know who they are as people too. I like to get to know them. I talk to them. I I don’t wanna say that they’re like all my friends, but I’ve had many clients that did become my friends after we stopped working together, because I just really enjoyed who they were as a person.

Jessica: So I try to not just come in as like the dog trainer and have that be some sort of like serious role. This is something where I. Need this person to trust me. I need them to feel comfortable confiding in me. And if I don’t have that with them and I don’t have that kind of open communication, then it’s going to be really difficult.

Jessica: If they are feeling really discouraged and they feel like they can’t tell me that. If I show up for a lesson and maybe they didn’t even work with their dog at all and they wanted to lie and they just wanted to say, whatever, maybe come [00:46:00] up with an excuse. But I think because I try my best to build such a good rapport with my clients, that I want them to feel like, yeah, they could just be totally honest with me and just be, ah, I didn’t do anything at all this week.

Jessica: And that’s what my clients will do. And they will just say that. And I just laugh because it is funny. I’m like, thank you for being honest. And I like to bring some humor into it as well. I joke around with my clients too because my gosh, this. Stuff can get so serious. A little humor.

Jessica: Yeah. It goes a long way. I like to laugh and make some jokes and stuff here and there and just make them feel really comfortable with me. Is really my biggest goal with that. And so that way they do feel comfortable coming to me and talking to me about things.

Jessica: And so in addition to just how I interact with them, that’s something important. But I will say, the other thing that I think is really important in the dog training world in terms of our profession is the service that we decide to recommend to a client being the service that meets their needs.

Jessica: Because one of the really common things that I see when I’m consulting with my [00:47:00] clients who are also dog trainer is that service or training program, not necessarily the training exercises themselves, but whether it’s private lessons or a homeschool program or a group class or a board and train, whatever that service is, doesn’t meet the client’s needs.

Jessica: So that inevitably is going to create a lot of friction because you have one idea as a trainer it should be going this way, and the client’s this isn’t working for me. And if you don’t have a service that meets that client’s needs, that’s gonna be. Difficult. So I think that’s another really important piece to taking these types of cases, specifically leash reactivity, because it isn’t something that gets fixed in a week.

Jessica: It can be something that can take quite some time to really address and get these dogs to a point to where they’re comfortable outside in scenarios. And then the owner is really confident. So I tend to do a lot of handholding with my clients, not in a literal sense of just Hey, I am their number one supporter.

Jessica: I am gonna guide them through every step of the way. [00:48:00] I’m gonna make sure I’m really clear with them about here’s what you should be doing, this is what it should be looking like. And I make sure I do my best to orchestrate that and set that up in however is gonna make that and that client most successful.

Jessica: And that’s my job. And I think that is something that not all dog trainers do very well.

Michael: Yeah. They don’t teach that in any dog training school that I’m aware of, at least to that degree. Right. It’s just something that comes with experience over time. I’m thinking about, you’re talking about safety and building trust with the clients, making sure the clients do have a safe place to tell you things because if they don’t feel like they can trust you, you’re not gonna get all the information you need anyways.

Michael: And they probably won’t be following through on what you ask them to do. I’ll tell you a case I had. And it just reminds me of everything we’ve been talking about. This dog that has a bite history towards I think five different people at this stage. When I took on the case, nothing too serious, but a couple did seek medical attention.

Michael: One did result in a $300,000 lawsuit. [00:49:00] So there was a little history in the case. And she absolutely, when we’re talking about a person, everybody loves their dogs, but this was like her child, this dog. So there’s no options other than we’re gonna work on this. And the first time I met with her, she spent about half of the consult, crying, just worried about what was gonna happen because of animal control had already been out there.

Michael: And then she was so worried about what could potentially happen to her dog. That was, a lot of me just sitting and listening and. Being a place for her to express her feelings. And then she said to me at the end, you’re not leaving. I’m like, what do you mean?

Michael: I’m like, she’s you’re not going anywhere. I’m like, so I looking at the door, I’m like, is you like kid me or What’s going on here? But she’s no, you’re stuck with me. She’s I really like your style, so we’re just gonna keep doing this. So it was great that she trusted me just even in that first session.

Michael: And we worked for quite some time. We worked probably about seven or eight months of sessions, and the dog really did well. Like this. This dog was wonderful picked up on the training. [00:50:00] A previous training had included a lot of aversive techniques and suppressing behavior. So really it was just helping this dog feel safe about interacting in the environment again, because everything was shut down.

Michael: The dog was very frustrated and would bite the leash and fortunately it wasn’t biting the guardian at this stage, but. You can see that the dog was also extremely like this sucks when I’m out here ’cause I’m always getting punished for everything I see. So we just completely flipped it for the dog, saying, okay, we can open up your world and we’re gonna reinforce you for doing things other than trying to bite people.

Michael: So the dog did wonderfully, but this client wouldn’t let me go. I said, you’re good here. You know what to do. The dog’s doing great. You’ve had people over, we’ve tested this out. You just had a Christmas party. You had five year friends over that are completely new to this dog and he loved them so you are good here.

Michael: But she wouldn’t take that. She’s you’re gonna keep coming. And I realized it’s because she wanted somebody to sort of hold her hand and feel safe with the process. ’cause she still wasn’t feeling a hundred percent safe out [00:51:00] in the real world walking this dog. So even though I did nothing, like I, there’s very little coaching in those sessions, i’d go there like once a month and she’d be like, when you come back, I’m like, you don’t need me. She’s no, you come back. I said I wanna make sure you know you don’t need me. ’cause I don’t want to be unethical and just charge you for coming out here for nothing. Yeah. And yeah, pretty much the whole hour session was her telling me about her love life and what’s going on in her.

Michael: I knew more about this woman than probably some of her closest friends ’cause she just confided in me all this information as we’re going for the walk. It just when a client feels supported, it is the game changer. It really is. Something that we need to think about in our industry is being that safe place in a ear for some clients, even if, they’re, they don’t need you necessarily for the mechanical skills and working with a dog, sometimes the dog’s I’m good.

Michael: You good? And so one of the best questions you can ask clients, how are you doing? ’cause we’re always focused on the dog. Like how’s the dog doing? What’s going on with the dog? How’s their week? How’s their stress? So ask the client. Yeah. How are you doing? How are you feeling this [00:52:00] week?

Michael: Because we miss that sometimes. And if we miss that, then that can derail our program too, so Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. Some of our clients they just, they want to have our support and if they want us to keep coming back, and we just keep on helping them then we will. I’ve had many clients like that as well.

Jessica: Some of them I’ve worked together for maybe two years. Their dog. Yeah. Their dog was already really far along, but they just wanted to keep on going and okay. You want me to help you? I’m gonna help you. I’m gonna just. Say no. So yeah, I always enjoyed that. And yes, those are the best kind of clients ’cause you develop, a closer relationship and those are some really enjoyable sessions.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. It’s kinda like we always say we’re like therapists, and we shouldn’t of course call ourselves that. But it’s funny because a lot of it is just clients just want somebody to talk to. Which is fine if they feel safe with us and they wanna talk to us. We just, we’re not gonna give them therapy.

Michael: We’ll give their dog therapy. Yeah. In that sense. But yeah, it’s important to draw that distinction with clients, I think too. ’cause some of them might start to [00:53:00] expect you to give them like, couples therapy during a session or something.

Jessica: Yes we do have to have those healthy boundaries. Yeah. But I think there’s a difference between having those healthy boundaries and the example, like you said, this is somebody who just really valued your support and felt safer when you were there, and maybe they just wanted to make sure that they continued to stay on track with the dog because of the seriousness of the situation that you originally were brought in to help them with.

Jessica: I think that’s valid. Yeah. So I think validating them of yes, of course I will come back and continue to help you if that’s something that they need.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Definitely.

Jessica: I’d love to get into some more personal questions because I don’t know that I’ve ever heard you get real personal on a podcast before.

Jessica: Maybe a few, a couple of times on your own podcast. Anyhow, I have a question for you. Yeah. Okay. What hobby or interest do you have that would surprise most people?

Michael: Ooh. Hobbies, I would say, ‘ [00:54:00] cause I’ve had a lot of hobbies over the years. I’m trying to think of what I’m doing now to pass the time in some ways because actually I play poker a lot.

Michael: So I go to the casino, I play poker. Just ’cause it’s a different energy, I guess, than what I’m so used to.

Michael: I enjoy the work I do incredibly. The people I get to surround myself with. I’m very fortunate and lucky in that regard. Though, sometimes. Just, I need a different energy so I’ll go and Yeah and go there and it’s mostly dudes just sitting around a poker table shooting the shit kind of thing.

Michael: I think I do it more for that. I don’t necessarily do it ’cause it’s like I’m let some degenerate gambler are really necessarily good at poker. I can hang with the rest of the table but that’s sort of like a little escape for me. And I think the reason I’m talking about it’s because this all boils down back to what do we do to recharge ourselves?

Michael: ’cause we have a lot of emotional energy we need to put out in the universe, in the work we do work in aggression cases or least reactivity or really any kind of behavior work. Working with clients, you are spending a lot of is that the right word? Spending a lot of emotional energy. So you need to recharge that.

Michael: So [00:55:00] that’s one way I do it. People don’t probably know too much about, is that I don’t watch a lot of sports. The only sport I watch is the UFC, so like the martial arts, my whole life. So I’m terrible at conversation in a barbershop, only talk about sports. Where’s the game?

Michael: I like who you got this year. I’m like, I don’t know anything about that stuff. I used to watch baseball as a kid, but that’s about it. But I do watch a lot of UFC and so that’s another thing I like to do is watch and still mess around with some mixed martial arts sometimes. So that’s another hobby.

Michael: And again, physical movement, exercise, it’s something I’m big into ’cause it’s important movement is life as they say. And yeah. So I enjoy doing things like, getting out and experiencing nature and somebody asked me at the poker table last night about a show, I’m like, I watch about five minutes of TV per year.

Michael: People are surprised by that. I rarely watch tv. There’s one TV in my house, but it’s never on. And yeah, I don’t know. I guess I pass my time doing other things for some reason I just can’t even sit still for a 30 minute show. Maybe I have terrible [00:56:00] attention disorder, but I cannot sit still during a 30 minute show.

Michael: Unless it’s gotta be really super interesting or documentary. I can watch a documentary about like animals, right? But yeah that’s how I pass the time when I’m not traveling and working and, working with students or, yeah. So a couple things about me.

Michael: Yeah. And you just moved actually let’s talk about that. ’cause we’ve been, both of us have gone through some challenges and as of late and parallel that to what a dog might be experiencing. I think you’ve moved, what, how many times in the last couple years and many, which many times is they say one of the most stressful things you can do in life is it’s what?

Michael: Death, divorce, and moving. Right. Some life changes have happened in Mayan too. And then it makes you think about what the dogs are experiencing when they experience loss or moving or, I guess they can’t really experience divorce, but I guess they could in some ways, right?

Michael: They get separated from a housemate that they really played well together and they suddenly had a fight and now they’re separated and that [00:57:00] could probably feel a little bit like a loss for them, some grief there. So anyways, what have you thought of? Maybe you can tell people what’s happened with the moves and like how often you’ve moved and like how that might, how it’s affected your animals, but also how do you think that parallel is to dogs?

Jessica: Yeah. My midlife crisis for the last three years. That’s, I think that’s really what all as you want. You

Michael: can label it whatever you want. Label

Jessica: it, whatever I want. Yeah. Divorce and moving. I got two out of the three. No death yet. Thank goodness. Yeah. It is a lot. I would say in terms of all of the different changes that I’ve had over the last few years, getting divorced three years ago, and honestly I think in a lot of ways that was good for the dogs because.

Jessica: My ex was a great guy, but I don’t know that he was really like a super dog person. And dogs can sense that he was more of a cat person. And so that was something where I think the dogs felt actually more relaxed when it was just us. And then I felt more relaxed too. So I think that was a positive.

Jessica: And I [00:58:00] experience things that many Americans are experiencing. Housing has skyrocketed since the pandemic and it actually started in raise or raising a few years before that as well. But I experienced the same thing where what I used to be able to afford and having that be suitable for my animals then was unaffordable for me.

Jessica: And that was something that I know so many people are dealing with and having people to come up with all sorts of, interesting housing scenarios. Yeah. So I really empathize with people, especially, if you’re single and you don’t have two incomes, it’s like that makes a, it makes a big difference.

Jessica: I certainly experienced a lot of instability after my divorce because I was trying to find a way of how do I take care of myself? How do I take care of my animals? And then at the time I was living in San Diego was one of the most expensive cities. Or if not, I think it was ranked the most expensive city in the US in 2024.

Jessica: So trying to do all that on my own, but I did, and so some of the moves were I. Certainly, I think probably a little more stressful for [00:59:00] me than the dogs to be totally honest. But what I do always notice what’s interesting is the different environments that I live in and then how those affect my dog’s behavior.

Jessica: I always think that’s the thing that I find most interesting is, what’s in the environment, what’s immediately around me in terms of neighbor, dogs, neighbors, how dense it is and so forth, and how that changes my dog’s behaviors. And I know from my dogs, they love being outside. And so I can’t be in an apartment with nothing.

Jessica: Like they need to be outside. I need a yard or a balcony or something where they can spend some time outside sending themselves. And that’s something that I know might sound. Trivial to some people that might be listening of wait, you need to find a place so your dogs have outdoor access.

Jessica: And I’m like, yeah, like I do, because I know my dogs and I also know me, and we all really love being outside. And yes, I do prioritize places where I have that outdoor access, and sometimes that [01:00:00] means that, I don’t always get to live as close to the city as I want to. Because, housing is often cheaper outside of a city.

Jessica: So it does mean that I make some of the sacrifices, for my dogs. And, certainly over the last, 12 months or so, I mean, my gosh I had this dream of moving to the mountains from San Diego and I wanted to live in Asheville. And so I, I planned that for over a year and then I got there and I loved it.

Jessica: And then Hurricane Helene hit and that changed a lot of things for me. And I went through a lot of really difficult times. Trying to figure out what I was gonna do next. And now where you and I are talking, I had since made the decision that I was gonna move back to Germany to be closer to my family.

Jessica: If you were to ask me a year ago, where do you think you’d be? This would be the absolute last place that I would’ve ever guessed. I thought for sure Asheville was gonna be my home forever and so forth. I’ve had to learn how to roll with a lot of punches, and fortunately my dogs are pretty resilient and they can go along with it.

Jessica: And the move, [01:01:00] specifically coming here to Germany, the city that I’m in is part city, but have a lot of parks and different things. And I’m just fortunate that, my, little animal family that I have right now can cope pretty well with that type of lifestyle.

Jessica: Compared to, if I think of, one of my pit bulls I think probably would’ve had a harder time living in this type of environment. But, so far the environment is actually working in our favor, for the most part.

Michael: Yeah. So you have this. Really resilient demeanor to you. I think you don’t give yourself enough credit to, because you had Helene hit that, that destroyed Asheville. Most of the listeners probably know about it, but you know, if you’re not aware of it, I mean that Helene hit and it wiped out much of Asheville.

Michael: And I remember for the aggression conference, we raised, some funds, but also got a bunch of donations brought over. And during all that time, I’m seeing you helping everybody out and you also take that delivery and spread out all those, you took the time to do all of [01:02:00] that, even with all of the stuff you’re going through and all of the stuff you’ve been through in the last couple years.

Michael: And I never saw you like not even like an ounce of despair. You were just like, yeah, just send it me, or this is what’s happening next, or I’m moving here. Where do you find that? Where do you find that resiliency in it, that strength you, keep just pushing and for me, at least from what I see and what I see when we talk or I see you, you’re always strong about it and you just keep going.

Michael: And I think that, I think our dogs can sense that too. We know dogs can, feed off of what we do and our behaviors. And our emotions, so that probably helps your dogs. But what’s your secret?

Jessica: The thing with Helene though, I. I think that’s part of just who I am as a person. When I see people in need and I have the ability to help, I could not turn my back on that because there was many things that had happened. For [01:03:00] one my specific street got power and water back on much faster than a lot of the surrounding areas. And because I had that, I was looking around, I’m thinking, holy cow, I could help a lot of people right now. So that’s why I had people come and take showers and I would do their laundry or I would get food for them or whatever I needed to do to help them.

Jessica: And I don’t know, because I could, it’s just the best way to describe, it’s why I did it. I could not see what was going on in front of me, of all of these people in need. And there was so much need at the time, and it was impossible for the community to receive the help and the support that they really needed.

Jessica: And that community really came together. I mean, it was. Stuff like the things that I experienced there, it was both the best of humanity, truly. I’ll never forget, the people I met, the, I get choked up like just talking about it because you saw the worst [01:04:00] devastation that you have ever seen.

Jessica: I had never ever seen anything like that. I mean, it was insane what I saw. And then to know how many people died and there was always a connection about the people who died. Oh, that person worked at the store right down the street and I drive by the store and think, wow. Like it was impossible because that community was so tight knit.

Jessica: And so you were both hit with such sadness. But then at the same time, I would be out working with people in the community and there were people who came from all over the us. All over the US and they were coming in with truckloads of stuff and especially the whole farming community and like agriculture community trucking in so many bales of hay.

Jessica: People can say what they want about farmers and all the other things. You know what? Those people take care of one another. Yeah. They take care of one another and they know how to survive. I can tell you that all those people knew how to survive if that [01:05:00] disaster happened somewhere else.

Jessica: Yeah. It would’ve been way worse. I can tell you that those people, they are smart. They look out for one another, they know their neighbors. It’s a very special place, and so I. Just felt compelled to do whatever I could to help. And I will say, after I poured so much of myself, like all day, every day I was out and doing all these things.

Jessica: At a certain point I did need to think a little bit more about making sure I was taking care of myself. That’s why I did my road trip back to San Diego so I could spend the holidays with my friends and family because I needed that time. I needed to step away from all of it because I knew that I would burn myself out if I just stayed, day in, day out, doing all of that sort of stuff.

Jessica: I think, when we think about dogs being resilient and I think some of it is just genetic or, I think it is, and I think it’s the same thing with people. I think I’m just one of those people that I can deal with an enormous amount of stress and.

Jessica: A lot of really difficult things [01:06:00] and I just have the ability to cope with it. It doesn’t mean that I don’t feel, sad or depressed or anything, certainly. After Helene and me trying to figure out where am I gonna go? I felt really lost for many months and I had a lot of really low days, to be totally honest.

Jessica: I thought, what am I doing here? I’m 40 years old and this is where I am in my life. Like, how did this happen? I had a lot of really low days. But I also just have a natural optimism and so I just keep thinking, okay, I’m gonna, I’m gonna figure this out. I’m gonna figure this out.

Jessica: And I’m,

Michael: yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of the, I. Recharge that happens, that we need, that everybody needs to be able to do something like what you did and to help your community is the work we do with dogs and to see the successes and outcomes. And because we are in a helping profession and one does work out, that’s a nice recharge for us, right?

Michael: And it balances out a lot of times those difficult cases or the [01:07:00] clients that may be not invested into what we’re saying. And it’s important to remember if the professionals listening in is saved those memories, put them in a folder or a nice email from a client or tech, save those. ’cause you go back and revisit those and it reminds you.

Michael: But it also, I find, gives you a little bit of a boost when you’re going through those hard times or if you’ve expended so much of your emotional energy helping others. As resilient as we are and as strong as we are and even as optimistic as we can be, we need to. Remember to recharge ourselves. So just a little note on that.

Michael: Definitely something I’ve done. It’s called wins. It’s a little folder in my inbox and then when somebody sends me a nice email, I just put it in there and go and revisit it once in a while. If I’m feeling down. And it works, at least it works for me.

Jessica: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah.

Jessica: No, the recharging is helpful and the perspective. I love the word perspective too. It’s just, one of my favorites. Just changing perspective, reframing things, that sort of stuff is also very helpful.

Michael: Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. This was wonderful, Mike.

Jessica: I’m glad that we could [01:08:00] get a little bit more personal in this. So I appreciate you coming on and sharing, all of your knowledge and more about yourself and asking me some really poignant questions. So I really enjoyed this and I feel like we’ve gotta do this again another time.

Michael: Definitely. It was an absolute pleasure. It’s always fun chatting with you.

Jessica: Wonderful. All right thank you. We’ll talk soon.

Michael: All right.

Jessica: I never know how to end those things. I say that it’s like, what do you say? Talk to you later. Text you later. No, that’s good.

Michael: That was good.