Join my mailing list for free resources on dog behavior and training, and be the first to know when new events become available.

Reactive dogs face a lot of stressors in their daily lives, and for many, their ability to “bounce back” gets worse with time.

What is resilience? What is going on when a dog’s resilience is low? How can you help condition your dog to increase their resilience?

In this episode I talk with Bobbie Bhambree CDBC, CPDT-KA on her and Dr. Kathy Murphy’s Reframing Resilience framework. We cover:

• The neurobiology of resilience
• What factors contribute to low resilience in dogs
• Considerations for building resilience for reactive dogs
• The importance of physical and mental health as the pillar of resilience
• And so much more

About Bobbie:

CATCH Canine Trainers Academy Instructor

Agility University Instructor

Co-founder of Brain Camp

Co-creator of the Resilience Framework

Bobbie Bhambree (CDBC, CPDT-KA) is a Certified Dog Behavior Consultant and Certified Professional Dog Trainer. She is a faculty member of CATCH Canine Trainers Academy and Agility University. Additionally, she is one of the founders and regular contributors to a passion project called Brain Camp, where neuroscience, behavior, and dog sports intersect. Bobbie founded her business, Dogology Behavior Consulting in 2024.

To learn more about the Resilience Framework: https://journal.iaabcfoundation.org/the-resilience-rainbow/

Transcript

Jessica: [00:00:00] I am Jessica Wheatcraft, and this is Rethinking Reactivity, A podcast designed to educate, empower, and equip the modern handler of reactive dogs. Whether you have a reactive dog or you help people with their reactive dogs, you’re in the right place.

If you’re a dog trainer looking to elevate the way that you work with reactive dogs and make a bigger impact in the lives of your clients, I want to invite you to join my next leash reactivity, mentorship for professionals. Starting this September 7th, in addition to going through my comprehensive course, you’ll also get to meet with me live every single week for 10 weeks, along with a cohort of other students where we’ll deep dive into all things leash reactivity.

You’ll also have the opportunity to get guidance on your own cases, and I like to give my students a really personalized [00:01:00] experience, which is why I cap registration to 15 spots. So be sure to register before it sells out. Check the show notes for the link or head on over to jessica we craft.com. Let’s get to the show.

So this is a much different podcast than I’ve ever done. The fact that we’re doing it in person, which is this your first in person? Yes. Yeah, I’ve done it.

’cause everyone else. They live somewhere else. I was gonna think anywhere else or anyone else that I have interviewed have all been really far away, like on the other side country. Well it’s my fault ’cause you asked me a long time ago and I’m like, oh I’ve gotta get back to her and schedule this. I’ve gotta get back.

And then like life was bananas and I thought, oh my God, I’m just gonna see her in person. Let’s just do it then. Yeah, yeah. No, and I’m glad that we did ’cause I think this is working out just fine. Yay. And I did get a photo of this little setup that we have. ’cause I like to share behind the scenes because I think it’s.

Like funny for listeners to see like what actually happens when, wait, I have to take a picture now. Do a celebrate. Yeah. What do, what do people do when, when this is happening, this is what we look like when we record this podcast. Yay. We’re [00:02:00] in room. Yes. We’ll take a photo. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, so we’re obviously at the A BK conference here in.

Bobbie: It is the uk but we’re outside of London. In Ashford. We’re We’re in Kent. We’re in Kent. Okay. Yes. So Animal Behavior, Kent on France. Okay. Which will soon be Brain and Behavior is the new rebrand. Yes. Yeah. Yes. That’s gonna be that. Awesome. And you and Dr. Kathy Murphy mm-hmm. Have developed this framework called Reframing Resilience.

Is that the name right? That I got Right. Okay. So we’ve got reframing, resilience, and do you wanna just share more about. What that is and what resilience is for dogs. Sure. So resilience we’re looking at it through the lens of neurobiology, so resilient. So that’s, we’re looking at the nervous system and yeah, there’s some like cognitive capacity or you know, like if for humans it’s.

Making choices or visualizing or cognitive behavioral therapy. Mm-hmm. For [00:03:00] dogs, it’s a bit different because we can’t have a conversation with them, but ultimately it’s about really rewiring the brain, rewiring the body so that it is more resistant to stressors and has the ability to recover. From stressors More easily.

Yeah, more readily. And then in general, if more resistant to stressors, you know, you can deal with a stressful event over time, a little bit better, like caring, being a caretaker or dealing with some stuff that might be happening in your life or deadlines or things or an amazing but exhausting conference.

Right, right. So, just all the people. Right. But you can be more resilient to all of that by just, it’s less about, I am going to be a resilient person today, and it’s really about how your nervous system responds to environmental factors. That makes sense. I’d love to get into that. Mm-hmm. Because I think a lot of people sometimes assume that resilience is something that [00:04:00] you either have or you don’t, and that it’s maybe not something that you can build on.

Yes. Build upon. Or or, or change, yeah. It’s dynamic. Yes, it’s dynamic. You can have low resilience, you can have high resilience. Like I had maybe low resilience for this event ’cause I haven’t been sleeping well. But that’s a, yeah. You know, only because I’m writing a book, which has nothing to do with dogs, but I’m writing a book, so I’ve been like very creative and very excited and just not really sleeping as many hours as I should.

So I’ve been less resilient. But because I live a life overall of supporting my resilience, building resilience, conditioning, resilience for my body, and it’s been like years of this. I was, I’m, you know, I’m okay, right. I’m okay. Mm-hmm. And I know what I’m gonna do afterwards to support my body and my brain from such a, you know, busy active event with so many people and some stimulation.

I traveled overseas. Right? We’re in the UK [00:05:00] right now. Yeah. And I’ve been here now. This will be, this is my fifth day. I’m leaving tomorrow. So I’m exhausted, right? Yeah. And we had a couple, like, I had an overnighter. I just stayed up all night because I flew in over a red eye and I just can’t sleep when I’m on a plane and I’m excited about what’s about to happen.

I just can’t sleep. Same. So I was up for 24 hours. More than 24 hours. Yeah. But even if you live a lifestyle where you’re really supporting your body and brain to be more resilient, to have high resilience. Mm-hmm. You can have periods of low resilience for different reasons.

Like maybe you have a headache for a while, like a migraine, or you’ve been sick or you’re not taking care of yourself. Like I’ve been eating a lot of like fried food, like the fish and chips are amazing. And typically at home I eat a lot of salads, a lot of greens, like really clean. So I’m sure that is chipping away at my resilience because my gut microbiome, my GI [00:06:00] system, like my body is used to a certain way of like living and the nutrients.

And it’s a little different this week. So I’m gonna do a bit cleanse when I get back. But I’m loving fish and chips, so I imagine right now. I’ve been chipping away at my resilience, but I have a plan in place for when I get back knowing this because I live this lifestyle and I was doing really great work in terms of diet and exercise before I came into this trip.

Yeah. All right. There’s some things that are coming to my mind since we’re talking human right, right. Where it’s in examples, we’re talking about us as humans. A couple things come to my mind, but I just wanna preface this by saying that I had did a podcast with Mike cio and he had asked me, where does my resilience come from?

Because we were talking about the madness that has been my life over the last couple of years. And he said, you know, you just always seem that you can just keep bouncing back from all of this. And he said, what’s your secret? And I had told him that I thought part of it was genetic. But that part of it is.

Actually, now that you’re saying all these things is part of it is that I do [00:07:00] actually take very good care of myself in that sense of making sure I’m eating really clean. I prioritize sleep. I make sure that I don’t push myself too hard because like you at the conference, it is, it’s a lot of people. It’s a lot of absorbing information.

Oh yes. A lot of education, a lot of knowledge. It’s so much in a lot of novelty. Right. You’re learning, trying to learn something new and you, you’re in a new place. You set at yourself with the lights are different. Yes. Like the sounds are different. You’re not in your own bed. Yeah. Like there’s, so I not having our dogs with us, like they help me with maintaining my resilience.

Yeah. Right. Your usual go-to like. Kind of safety, security, like support systems that you have in place that help you with your resilience, but it’s lifestyle. Like we’re reframing, reframing resilience. Our intention is to create a lifestyle. And it’s not like, oh, you have to live my lifestyle.

Mm-hmm. You just have to live a lifestyle, but we’re gonna give you the science. The practical [00:08:00] steps to apply that or implement that in the way that you wanna live, but also recognizing like what the dog needs. Yeah. But you know, if you live in an urban environment versus a rural environment versus a suburban apartment versus a house, so we.

There’s a lot of room within our model reframe, reframing, resilience, but we want it to be a lifestyle, which is why you bounce back. Yes. So now this is all actually connecting more as you were, yes. As you were rattling things off. I’m like, oh snap. I do the same thing and it, does it really add up? Because I didn’t always.

Live like this. I didn’t, me neither, always prioritize my sleep. I didn’t always eat clean. But when you add all the little pieces up, it does make you feel a lot better. Yes. And as you know, we’re at this conference, I, I. Take care of myself in the sense that I can’t attend every single talk. Mm-hmm. I wish I could.

Yeah. I really do. I really wish I could, but I just can’t because I just can’t take it mentally or physically. So I tend to give myself a lot of breaks in the hotel room where it’s [00:09:00] quiet. Yeah. I don’t have to talk to anybody. Yeah. I just have a little bit of downtime and then I go back out when I’m ready.

Yeah. And so. So this is making so much sense from a human perspective, and I wanna switch this to dogs. Yeah. And also specifically dogs that have leash reactivity. Sure. Because that’s a big part of what this whole podcast is about. And because I, I feel like dogs who have leash reactivity have a lot more daily stressors in their life.

Mm-hmm. Then. Another dog. Mm-hmm. And I think that building up that resiliency is so important for not only just their overall welfare, but then we also see a really big improvement in their behavior. Mm-hmm. Without doing any training at all. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Because what we’re doing is we’re supporting the nervous system, rewiring the nervous system.

To be able to handle those stressors. So if the triggers, so a straightforward trigger would be other dogs? Yeah. Right. So if you’re walking down the street and you live in a suburban neighborhood and every time you see a dog, your dog barks and [00:10:00] lunges and maybe on a, at a busy time for your average suburban neighborhood, you might see like.

A handful of dogs. Yeah. Maybe just one or two. It really depends on where you are in the country. But then if you live in an urban environment, you could potentially see like 20 or 30 dogs on a walk. Like I know in New York City, you, you would, when I worked and lived in New York City, it was 20 to 30 dogs in any given walk.

Yeah. And so a it that impacts the nervous system. Right. And then if also, if you’re living in an urban environment, it’s not just, it’s not just about what is a trigger, like maybe. A dog walking down the street is reactive, like, doesn’t like other dogs or fearful of other dogs. So whatever the, whatever the function of that behavior of reactivity is or whatever the kind of underlying motivations are, mm-hmm.

You still have this particular behavioral expression like, I will bark and lunge when I see another dog, regardless of what the motivation or function is. So that being said, [00:11:00] you already have a brain in that dog. That is taking in all the stimuli in the environment. Buses and trucks and peoples and carriages and you know, and, and by the way, there’s like, a tenfold of activity then versus walking down a suburban street.

You’re only gonna see like a random neighbor or a dog. Yeah. Whereas in New York City or any urban environment, you’re gonna see like. 20 or 30 different things the second you walk out your door. And I lived on the Upper East side, so, and I live near a park, so it wasn’t commercial at all. It was just like residential area, but it was still so dense.

Like population Yeah. Density, right. Between people and dogs. So, and by the park, just, we would see a ton of people in dogs all the time. So, but my dogs are dealing with the noise. Like everything that their senses are pulling in the smells. Like there’s so many more smells and they’re not like sense, smell, like sense that like [00:12:00] natural smells like mm-hmm.

Like nature, right? Yeah. Not green smells. There’s garbage and there’s you know, gas. Yeah. You know, smoke, they’re different people. Like if you’re walking down the street and there’s like all these garbage bags on garbage pickup day and all the dogs peeing on them, like there’s just a lot going on.

The pavement. How does it feel? They’re taking that in? Yeah, right. What, what are they hearing? It, there’s just, what are they feeling when they walk down the street? So there’s so much more going on that their brains have to absorb and process. So with that much activity going on in the nervous system.

They’re a bit more elevated. Mm-hmm. With how the brain is processing information and now you see a dog, and now you see another one and another one, and another one and another one. So a big part of the work that we do is how do we prepare the nervous system to be able to really like sort of address or process, all of that stimulation, all of that information, that input that’s coming into the brain and [00:13:00] being worked through the nervous system while also dealing with the potential triggers.

Right. So we’re like, how can we almost like work out the nervous system so that it’s stronger, so to speak? I’m think I’m kind of using like a gym analogy, like working out Yeah. So that I’m stronger so that I can deal with whatever else is going out out there. So I’m 48 years old and I am working out to build muscle.

Yeah. And it worked out right before I was like, can I come a little later so we can work? Because, not just because I love surfing, not just because I do dog agility, but be like, this is my plan to stay out of nursing homes. Like I wanna be a strong woman. Yes. With like, you know, I’m going through hormonal changes.

Like I want my muscles, my bones. We have like, osteoporosis on my mother’s side of the family. Like, I want all of that to be strong, to help me stay out of the nursing home for as long as possible. Yeah. Because I wanna live a fulfilled life. Like my quality of life looks a certain [00:14:00] way. And so that’s what we’re doing for the nervous system when we’re looking at resilience conditioning.

How can I help this individual dog be able to withstand all that’s going on around them in addition to the trigger, right? So maybe that same dog now lives in the suburbs, so they have less information input coming into them, but they still have, you know, the dog reactivity, but. Or if they move. So I’m thinking of one dog.

It was Indiana, the one that we talked about in the conference. Mm-hmm. You know, she, he had a harder time living in an urban environment and when they moved to a suburban environment he already had so many tools, but just moving out of an urban environment, like his nervous system naturally became a bit more resilient because.

He didn’t, his body didn’t have to work so hard to process all that information. Yeah. And to what’s called complete the stress cycle to get to a place where the body’s [00:15:00] activation in preparation for dealing with life stressors, whether the stressors are fun or not fun or, or kind of good or bad. Right. Quote unquote, I’m doing air quotes.

Nobody can say that. It doesn’t have to work so hard to get back down to baseline and also. It might get there quicker and the baseline might even be lower, so there’s more space, more flexibility. For the nervous system to deal with stressors. Yeah. Can you share more about the completion of the stress cycle and what that looks like for dogs?

Yeah. So decompression is one of the elements of our reframe model. We used to call them domains, but we like the, we think elements is actually. I like that. Yeah. It’s like a better way to describe it. Yeah. Versus kind of like domain, like ownership, I feel like. Mm-hmm. So, and with decompression we’re looking at like, how do we support the nervous system from coming down from whatever stressor there is.

Sometimes they can come down all the way, like decompression can get to a. Where you complete the stress cycle. [00:16:00] Sometimes they only come down a little bit because maybe like, you know, each day or you said you take break, you took breaks throughout this conference. Yeah, I did too. And so every time you took a break, your nervous system got to decompress a little bit, but you probably won’t reach your baseline, which is completing the stress cycle and coming down to your individual’s natural baseline until you get home.

And you’ve maybe had a number of days or weeks. Mm-hmm. Yep. And depending on how your body works. Yeah, that makes sense, right? To get to your baseline. So that’s completing the stress cycle is going through the stress response. And I just wanna say this really quickly. There’s a particular system in the body called the HPA axis.

So the hypothalamus, pituitary gland. Adrenal, sorry, hypothalamus pituitary, adrenal gland axis. And so what that is, is that. People often refer to that as like fight or flight response. But it’s basically a, your stress response cycle. It’s your body saying, we’ve gotta get the body ready, muscles, [00:17:00] brain get ready.

Adding more glucose like influx of glucose and energy and whatever the body needs to prepare for an event. Maybe the event is, ah, I’m going for a walk outside and we live in an urban environment for like the dog, right? I’m gonna see all the dogs. Or maybe it’s like, yeah, I’m excited ’cause grandma’s coming over.

Or maybe it’s like us preparing for this conference, or I’m doing, I did a talk on some on Friday and then I did a talk on Saturday. So my body had to prepare even though I was excited to do the talks. Yeah, they weren’t bad. And I was happy to be there, so like my emotions were positive, but my body still had to activate with the cortisol and adrenaline and do all the things to be present and, and then.

Afterwards, you know, it came off, came down my body, adrenaline cortisol came down. But I didn’t complete that stress cycle because I’m still at the conference. Yeah. And I had to prepare. My body was like, we can’t come down that much because we’re gonna do it again tomorrow. So I [00:18:00] probably, and then when I go home, I’ve got like two days and then I’ve got a big agility trial.

So I probably won’t complete the stress cycle until like two weeks from now. But I have. Activities in place to help me with that. Mm-hmm. And that’s what we can do for our dogs as well. That makes sense. Is baseline considered the same as homeostasis? It I wouldn’t necessarily ho say homeostasis, but it’s like.

It’s this because homeostasis is like your entire system, I would say. Yeah, that’s what I was wondering. Yeah, so baseline is specific to the HPA axis, so it’s baseline is specific to the system in the body that is responsible for preparing your body to deal with a potentially stressful event. The stress could be like, I am gonna be giving a presentation and I’m really excited and happy about it.

Right. My friend. Oh, who gave the resource guarding one? She was very nervous, right? Yeah, so she had a different emotional response. [00:19:00] And her body had to activate. And I was like, I’m thrilled. This is gonna be so much fun. Mm-hmm. Only ’cause I’ve been talking for a lot longer than her. Yeah. And so, but my body also had to activate.

It’s kind of like I, the, the, one of the ways that I give the example to help people understand that stress isn’t necessarily a bad thing. We’re looking at stress through not as like negative things happening in your life. We’re looking at it through the neurobiological lens of saying. My body has to prepare itself for something happening.

When I got married, my wedding, my HPA axis was like in the stratosphere, and I was, it was like the happiest day of my life. Like my bridesmaids were there. Dr. Kathy Murphy was there, right? Aw. One of my bridesmaids. Like my sisters, it was like the best day ever. Yeah. Obviously getting married to my husband, but up until, yeah, let’s not forget that.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. That day. Oh, yeah. But up until the point that we [00:20:00] set our vows, I was so nervous and like, but it, but that, what was that was, is that my nervous system was activated to prepare for this event. So that I could be as focused, as present, as engaged, and do the job that I intended to do.

Yes, yes. I’m following that. And I like how you are clarifying that it’s not good or bad stress. ’cause either way your body is still having to activate and I think. That is something that we tend to think of as, as trainers, right. When we have our clients who are exposing their dog to a lot mm-hmm. And we maybe suspect that they’re overdoing it.

Yeah. And then our clients will say, but he gets so excited when I pull the leash out Yeah. To go and or, but he gets so excited, you know, to play ball or when we are at the park, you know, but they’re so excited about it. Yeah. And. Yes, they are excited about it. Just like you were [00:21:00] excited to do the talk.

Yeah. But when there’s too much of that piled on without these other elements that are coming into play to bring that back down. Yeah. That is usually where we tend to see more of those maladaptive behaviors that come out. And it may not even occur. At the park or even when you come home from the park, but it might happen a couple hours later.

Yeah. That your dog might, if they don’t have. If they don’t have high resilience, yes. If they have low resilience, then you’ll see those maladaptive behaviors show up. Yeah. But if they have high resilience, their body will naturally bring itself back down. Yeah. Complete that stress cycle, or at least decompress to a certain ex to a certain point.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. So what are some things for people who will just describe the average dog who is reactive on leash? Mm-hmm. Maybe doesn’t live in New York City. Maybe this is suburban. They take, they take the dog out, they’ll see, [00:22:00] like you said, maybe handful of dogs on the walk at home. Maybe it’s like a fairly quiet home life inside the home, but they do have a backyard and maybe the dog alerts.

To with the neighbor dog that’s next door. Yeah. Yeah. So even outside in the backyard, at least a couple times a day, the dog’s alerting to that sometimes that he reps into some running along the fence line and barking. Yeah. But aside from that, we’re gonna call it like just your average typical home.

What are some things that you found really helpful for these types of clients To do with this dog? Yeah. To help them build more resilience and help them to recover from things more quickly. So it’s really specific to the dog and the household and the and, and who they live with. And kind of like the schedule.

There’s all these variables at play, right? Yeah. And so in our reframing resilience model, we have the seven elements, but really six elements in the foundation. So mental and physical wellbeing is our foundation. If that’s not in place the others will not work or be as effective, essentially.

Yeah, right. They have to feel good, they have to be [00:23:00] healthy mentally and physically, or closer to that as possible. Typically behavior issues are really mental health issues or emotional distress, things like that, but we want them physically sound or without pain or without, you know, digestive issues or things like that, or skin irritation or dental pain that we want handled.

Mm-hmm. If all of that is handled, then typically I would look at, okay, the six elements. So we’re looking at decompression, completing the stress cycle predictability. Agency social support and I’m blanking on one. Hold on. ‘Cause I don’t have it in front of me and my brain is really tired after many days.

I was gonna say. And I attended it and I still don’t know the last one. Yeah. Decompression. Completing the stress cycles Agency, social support, predictability and mental and physical. Well, no. Yeah, I think it’s the five. Okay. And then six. Yeah. Okay. So I might have missed it. We’re gonna have to check that.

I’ll double check. We’ll put, we’ll put a link to everything in the show notes too. You so people. Yeah. [00:24:00] Like, yeah. That way people will know exactly where to find more. Have to look it now. It’s making me nuts. That’s, I’m the same way. Yeah. We’ll figure it out. We’ll make sure that we got ’em all listed. Okay.

So when we’re looking at one of, at all of those elements I’m really thinking about, here we go. I got, oh, safety and security. No, I got all of them. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so. When we’re looking at those elements in that example that you gave, I’m gonna think about, well, what does that dog need of those elements?

What’s the priority, right? As long as we know, like physically the dog is sound. So, perhaps the dog needs some safety and security. Like, how has the Guardian been behaving or acting to support the dog on the walks? Like, is he walking too close to the other dogs? Is he not like just walking past them and not giving him more distance?

Is he allowing dogs to run up to him closer than he needs to? Right. So the dog doesn’t feel safe outside. And is it happening again and again and [00:25:00] again and again. Right. Yeah. So that, yeah, that’s a great point. How does the dog trust that its handler has its best interests at heart? Right? And so that might be one thing.

Or is the dog a kind of dog that’s like, I’m really nervous out on these walks and I need a buddy to walk with. Like I need my, maybe there’s another dog in the household that needs to go with that dog. And that really helps him feel a little bit more at ease. ’cause maybe that other dog is like. Hey, other dogs, I don’t even mind you.

Right? Yeah. So they’re modeling off of, they’re getting social support from their buddy, their housemate. Yeah. There’s also a lot of exercises in games that we can play. Predictability is kind of where that falls. Mm-hmm. Where we can say, okay, let’s create some structure. Let’s create these experiences that feel predictable that we can bring out into the world, into unpredictable situations.

Where you can now process what’s going on around you, but you’ve got this like coping strategy in place as [00:26:00] well. Yeah. And then you build that slowly over time, you know? And then I love decompression. I’ve worked with a lot of dogs that even if the walk is like uneventful, meaning they don’t see another dog, or they see another dog and their guardian is really good about supporting them because they’ve been working with their dog for a while and they’ve had the support of a professional.

But the dog has had this learning history that’s kind of built up over time, right? In their bodies, in their brains, their memories, their perspective. So even if it goes well, like uneventful rather, they still need some decompression support. So I have a lot of clients where I’ll say, okay, you come back home and let’s do like a couple of minutes of snuffle mat, or let’s do like some play in the backyard where you’re throwing the ball or a Frisbee or something for a couple of minutes to get that.

It depends on the dog what they need, or like a really nice chew when they get home. Like it depends on what the dog’s needs are. Preferences all. Yes. And I’m gonna just jump in real quick because like you said, it’s different depending on the dog. And I [00:27:00] know that my dog, I can tell that when he needs a little bit of decompression is that he starts to get a little more animated the closer we come home because he knows I’m gonna take his leash off.

And sometimes not every time. Again, it depends on the walk and many other factors. He just gets like what I call his crack face, which I don’t care. Like he’s on crack, but he’s just like, oh my God. And then he wants to do the zoomies. And the zoomies for him though, are something that he also does not just right after a walk.

He’s very silly. He loves running in circles in a, in a very, very wide circle on grass. Favorite thing of all time to like end my, chase him and whatnot. And I notice that when I give him that opportunity, when he needs that he’s much calmer. Yeah. Coming in then settling in after that walk. Yeah.

Whereas other dogs maybe don’t need that, but my dog, even at seven years of age and it’s a, it could be a pressure release. I think that’s, yeah. I think that’s part of it too, which I do notice he often needs that more when he gets less off leash time. Yeah. And that’s also a decompression activity.

Yeah. And that same activity could [00:28:00] be, I’m happy and excited. Yeah. That same activity could be, I need to decompress right now. Yeah. The same activity could mean a lot of different things. Yeah. And it’s really about, well, we like to say like, learn your dog. Mm-hmm. What are your dog’s preferences? And that could change over time.

Yeah. I like, because I do dog sports, I’m constantly like assessing, adjusting, assessing, adjusting. And there are times, especially when my dogs are younger and they’re learning the sport. And I’m learning how to teach them because everyone that I get is different. I’m learning to speak the same language, right?

So they need a lot of decompression opportunities and because I raise my dogs that way, get ’em as puppies and raise them that way they are more resilient. In the world, in life, in the sport, then I believe that it would’ve been done otherwise. Yeah. So what I’m hearing you say in terms of helping them decompress and get as complete as much of the stress cycle as possible is Yeah.

Giving ’em those opportunities after a walk. You mentioned snuffle [00:29:00] mats. Yeah. As special chew a Kong. Yeah. And again, maybe depending on the dog. They might need something that involves a little bit more movement first before they move to to another activity that’s maybe a little lower. Sometimes I help with my clients whose dog have a lot of arousal.

Yeah. And they need to end one activity and move on to another one. Sometimes they say, well, I try to give him the Kong, and he didn’t want it. And so I said, well, he probably needs more movement. And so I said, why don’t you do maybe a nose work game in your house where he can move more? Yeah.

And then follow that with the Kong and see if that helps him because you get more movement involved. Or maybe it’s a treat ball or something where they can be more animated. I described it as like lowering the volume a little bit more. Yeah. And we’re gonna give them something else that involves less movement.

So I think like, yeah, testing these things out with your dog and seeing what helps them. How do they respond? Because another dog would be perfectly happy just working on a frozen Kong when they get home. Right, exactly. And so I had a client, a pit bull that with some trauma before he was adopted that lived in New York City, [00:30:00] and he would come back after a walk and literally like ricocheting off the walls.

Mm-hmm. Like NASCAR on the couch, like racing around. So he needed like. You know, about 30 seconds of tugging. Yep. And then a snuffle mat. Yeah. And we did it for several weeks and then he really didn’t need the tugging anymore. And then he actually even didn’t need the snuffle mat anymore ’cause we were training his physi, like physiologically we were training his body to practice completing that stress cycle, or at least decompressing to a certain point.

I don’t believe he fully completed the stress cycle until they moved out of the city several years later and not because of him. But because they were expanding their family and they wanted to be close to their biological family, like their, like grandparents and such and that’s really where we saw a massive change in him, like even more so.

But think of these activities as like. Is it like going into the gym and working out, right. You’re practicing physiological resilience conditioning and that’s what you’re [00:31:00] practicing. Yeah, and then the body often can do a lot of it on its own and sometimes you still have to support them.

It depends on the individual dog, the environment, all those things like, so my dog sport dogs, I had to do it like in the moment at times, working with them after a training session. But now they do it naturally. They can just, their bodies are able to handle it on their own. I also go into nature a few times a week with them.

Off-leash opportunities like agency. So they have all of these sort of built into their routine, their schedule. And I don’t have to make sure I do it so much. Like in the moment with them, they can do it. They’re able to do it themselves. But when I do events like when I get back next weekend, I have a three day agility trial.

It’s a very big trial. There’s gonna be a lot going on. And so I know that on like Monday I’m off so I can also decompress and we’re gonna go on a nature walk. Right. And so that whole week I’ll probably not train them [00:32:00] at all and just take them out into nature and we’ll do a lot of things that are more about supporting their physi, physiologic, supporting their physiology.

I’m tired to complete that stress cycle. Yeah. Even though they love the sport and they love going into those situations. Yeah. Yes. I really like how you’re bringing that up as well. And the last thing, just since I’m still thinking a little bit about when the dogs come home from the walks is when they do, like your client that you said was ricocheting off the walls.

I think that sometimes our clients can misread that as, now I need to exercise them more. Yes. That is the number one thing that they read that as, oh shoot, well, they just didn’t run enough. And then that. Where we are seeing that these dogs, they’re overdoing it. Yeah. Because it’s not necessarily from lack of movement per se, it’s, it’s that they have had to absorb so much of what was just going on out there.

Yeah. And it needs to get out of them somehow. They need to process all of this somehow. And so by doing what you did, okay, we’re gonna play tug for a bit and then you’re gonna do the snuffle [00:33:00] mat. That eventually that dog was able to regulate itself more efficiently than it came naturally home.

Yes. Yeah. And that, of course you were addressing the behavior outside via training and behavior modification. Yeah. So it wasn’t like we weren’t addressing that at all. Yeah. So I wanna make sure that that part is clear. Yeah. We’re also addressing that. And so, yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense.

Now, one thing that we didn’t touch on was, well actually you did touch on it, but it’s really important is the physical side. So you were saying, we need to make sure that the dog is not having GI issues or chronic skin conditions, or there’s some sort of discomfort or chronic pain that is going on.

Mm-hmm. That is something that at this conference it is huge. It is huge. Yeah. I’ve heard it in every single talk today. Yeah. And I’m so glad that this is becoming more of a common conversation that everybody is starting to have because it is something that when a dog is having to live with some sort of chronic discomfort in whatever realm of their [00:34:00] bodies, it does really lead to those behavior changes and sometimes.

That can be really difficult for us to explain to our clients. Mm-hmm. Or even. For our clients to try to explain to their vet. Yeah. It’s such a tricky situation because we’re seeing that something doesn’t seem right. Yeah. And then the client’s trying to address it, but then the vet says, well, the dog’s fine.

And then it just feels like we’re going in circles. Yes. That we as behavior professionals and trainers trying to come in and help the dog, but they’re just not making a lot of traction in, in this program. And so it doesn’t really work unless you can address everything. Yes. And so I’m hoping that you can speak on that a little bit of just the importance of that.

Sure. So with Dr. Kathy Murphy and Shannon Newan we’re creating and then Dr. Lee Christensen. Who’s a veterinary behaviorist. We’re creating a reframe course, so reframing resilience course for professionals, because [00:35:00] we recognized that in our world today, pain is a big part. Some kind of discomfort or pain is a big part of our.

The conversation with behavior issues or training issues. And this is not for like a vast majority of dogs are not in pain, especially when they’re younger, but there are so many that are going undiagnosed or or someone might recognize, oh well my dog has skin issues and we’re addressing it, but they don’t realize how much it’s impacting the dog’s behavior issues.

Yeah. They don’t realize how significant that connection can be for some dogs, for example. And so in this course we’re spending a lot of time training professionals, coaching professionals on how to have those conversations with veterinarians, how to have those conversations with pet guardians so that they can go to their veterinarians and have and, ’cause you know, when a dog goes to a vet or any pet goes to a vet, talk about

you know, their nervous system being [00:36:00] activated. Mm-hmm. They’re usually nervous in some respect. Yeah. They’re usually uncomfortable. They might be absolutely panicked. Like there’s a whole range of emotions that happens. I have a dog, a pit bull, Ellie, that loves going to the vet ’cause she loves people.

Never had a dog like this before until there’s some restraint going on. So we don’t restrain her. We’ve worked through how to help her. Like, Hey, we’ll just feed you and I’ll just have you focus on me. And there’s never any restraint. But she loves going to the vet. She’s so happy. Most dogs are not like that.

Yeah, right. So, when you go to the vet with your dog, they’re not gonna show the pain issue or the concern that you might have. Maybe it’s not as significant, like Dr. Murphy will say, well, more often than not, we spot it when the dog is in agony. And that means like the pain scale is quite high. Like if you go, you know, if you’re at the hospital, they’re like, where are you in the pain scale one to 10.

They might be at an eight, nine, or 10. By the time the pain is noticed, that means agony. That’s not pain, [00:37:00] that’s like next level. So we wanna catch it at like a two. Mm-hmm. Maybe a three. Hopefully a one. We wanna catch it super early so that there’s a lot of preventatives that can be put into place, or at least addressing it before it evolves or devolves into something that’s more significant for the dog.

So when they bring the dog to the vet, their adrenal is going, their adrenaline, their cortisol levels are higher. You go to these small vet rooms, like most of them don’t have the space to really test it. And even if they take ’em into a long hallway to like, how are they moving? How does their gait look?

They’re not gonna see it. And I saw it with my own pit bull. She had a partial cruciate tear in one leg, and then eventually the other leg. She’s poor structure. She was malnourished as a puppy before I got her and then she ended up at the shelter. So she was. She didn’t, she was so happy to, she was so happy to be there.

They didn’t see anything. Yeah. But I knew there was a problem because at home, so I had to take a lot of video to show them. [00:38:00] So I was like, okay, we’re gonna take video and I’m gonna have you walk upstairs. I’m gonna have you walk downstairs. I’m gonna have you jump on the couch. Like I’ll do all the things that you typically do.

Move freely, play with your brothers. Walk around the yard. Let me see your left side. Let me see your right side. What do you look like when you’re trotting, walking, running, right? So, there’s so many different sitting, standing. How do you sit? Do you kick your leg out? Are you leaning to one side?

Like there’s all these little things. You bring that to the vet. Then hopefully you’re working with a pet professional that can guide you with like how to have that conversation so the vet can see what they’re not gonna see in the exam room. ’cause the dog is terrified or full of adrenaline or excited or what have you.

And a lot of times when they’re in that state, the pain is masked. Yeah. It’s kind of like an Olympic athlete, like they’re in pain. And they’re still winning gold medals. Mm-hmm. Right? Because the pain is [00:39:00] masked because of the adrenaline, because of will. Mm-hmm. Who knows, like mm-hmm. They’re there to do a sport, they’re there to win.

Mm-hmm. So unless they’re in agony and at that point they usually pull from the sport they’re gonna play, they’re gonna play the sport or, or execute whatever they need to execute. And so that’s kind of where we have to look at our dogs when we’re considering pain and really looking at how to have those conversations.

And coaching our, our clients to have those conversations with veterinarians. Yeah, you brought up a lot of gems there. So I really love the videos ’cause you guys talked about that in your conference and that is something that I find to be really powerful for all the reasons that you described, that the vet clinic is not the same as home.

Mm-hmm. Your dog is not gonna behave the same there. No, not at all. And when dogs are worried, they tense up. And the amount of vets who have seen my dog’s knees and told me. Your dog’s knees. I don’t feel anything yet. My [00:40:00] dog, it skips frequently, so he’s half chihuahua. We know luxating patellas are very common in chihuahuas and he skips a lot and he, he is diagnosed with Luxating.

Patellas, but the amount of vets who’ve said, oh, but he seems fine. I’m like, that’s because he, he freezes. It’s the muscle tensioning. Yes. When he, he, he, when he is nervous. So you’re not gonna feel it. Mm-hmm. And you’re not gonna see it the way that I do. And it wasn’t until I took a video of it. And then sent it to my vet that she was like, oh yeah, that’s what this is.

Yeah. So I love that idea of the video. So I think that’s a really, really nice tangible takeaway for listeners that if they suspect something’s wrong with their dog, get the videos and all these different circumstances like you described. Yeah. That is, is a gem. And Yes. And then if they’re working with a pet professional to have them you know, kind of support them and how they could approach this conversation with the vet.

Yeah. And the last thing that I wanted to mention regarding physical stuff was the physiotherapist for dogs. Yes. I love that. When he lost without them, I know. And when I was in San Diego, I knew [00:41:00] of a physiotherapist because I used to teach classes at their little clinics.

So that’s how I knew about them. But it’s something that I think we as dog people think is very obvious. Like, oh yeah, well if your dog needed surgery and they needed rehab, you just take him to this place. And I think that one of the things that was like a big eye-opener for me today, I thought, oh my gosh, we think that this is an obvious resource, but a lot of pet parents don’t know that that is an actual resource.

And what I really loved was that you guys were describing how a, a physiotherapist that works with dogs has an eye for things like a gait that’s a little different or muscle tone that’s more pronounced on one side and less on the other side. They are gonna be able to spot those things probably easier and faster than your traditional veterinarian.

Yeah. And it might actually be more advantageous to go to one of those people first and then maybe get a report from them to then take to the vet. If your dog needed more treatment than the [00:42:00] physiotherapist would be able to provide. Yeah, I would say it’s okay to go to the vet first as well. I would do both.

Sure. Yeah, I would do both either way. Yeah. But with a physiotherapist, they’re trained. I, I think of them like a specialist. Like if, God forbid my dog has cancer, I’m gonna go to an oncologist, right? Mm-hmm. Or if my dog has like GI issues, I’m gonna go to someone who can really specialize that as well as like.

You know, behavioral health of veterinary behaviors, right? So there’s a physiotherapist, looks at soft tissue. It looks like myofascia. It looks at like, they’re looking at the muscles, they’re looking at everything but the bone. Mm-hmm. Right? Again, ’cause of dog sports.

I’ve been exposed to this world in a way that a lot of, I would say even professionals don’t know about how significant of a difference that physiotherapists can make. Mm-hmm. And so they’re able to spot things. Because I do dog sports, my dogs go to them regularly, so they have a baseline of what my dogs feel like.

They’re putting their [00:43:00] hands on them. They can feel things that might be off based on, they get to see ’em every four to six weeks, right? Yeah. And they’re seeing like hundreds of dogs every month. They have an incredible frame of reference. Yes. They work with a lot of soft tissue injury.

They do a lot of rehab after surgeries. It, it’s as similar as going to like physical therapy for a human. Yes. And doing rehabilitative work like if you had surgery or your back went out or something’s going on. The same thing is going on for the dog. And if you don’t address those issues, it chips away at resilience.

The resilience that’s already there for the dog. And then you, if your reactivity is one of the problems that you have, it will exacerbate. Or if you don’t have reactivity, it might show up. Because the dog is in pain. Yeah. And they’re more sensitive about other beings mm-hmm. Coming into their space.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which makes, which [00:44:00] makes perfect sense. Yeah. I’m really glad that we are bringing this up because I have not yet had a chance to talk about that correlation between pain and behavior on my podcast yet in this season. So I’m really glad that we brought this up because like you and Kathy said in your talk.

If you do not address this medical component, then all of these other elements, as hard as you try to get all these other elements in place, yeah. You’ll never get the result that, that we need or that we could get potential. Or that we could get, yeah. Yes. When the medical is still not fully taken care of.

Exactly. And that’s why it’s so important that even if. Somebody’s listening took their dog to the vet. They had said, your dog is fine. It is still worth it to try something else. Yeah. Try a physiotherapist. Try a second opinion. Try maybe another vet that works a lot with sport dogs. Yeah. That’s another thing that maybe you see if you have something like that in in your community, and now that you’re mentioning, you know, that you do so much agility with your dogs, maybe they should [00:45:00] reach out to an agility trainer in their area and ask them, who do you take your dog to?

Yeah. Exactly’s. Pretty sure that that agility trainer has a physiotherapist for their dogs. Exactly. So maybe they can find the resources that way. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Alright, well thank you so much for coming on and welcome. Yeah. Sharing all of this knowledge, I think. I certainly wanna dive into this more and maybe we can do this another time.

Yeah. With you and Dr. Kathy. Yeah. ‘Cause she’s so hilarious. She’s so funny. Yes. It would be, it would be fun to really Yeah. Dive into all of this more so that people can learn more about how they can help their dogs. Mm-hmm. You know, be, be more resilient. In general, and that it is something that people can change.

You can totally change it, which is brilliant. And it doesn’t matter where your dog is behaviorally, physically you can always increase your condition resilience. And maybe it won’t be where you thought it could be, but it, any work that you do in that direction will make a difference to improve quality of life for your dog and for you.

Yeah, it will. It will. Yeah. All right. Thank [00:46:00] you. Thanks.

Hey listeners, I want to hear from you. If you have a suggestion for a topic or a guest, send me an email at podcast@jessicawitchcraft.com. Or if you have a question about reactive dogs that you’d like me to answer on the show, you can leave me a voice message. Be sure to check the show notes on how to do that.

If you found this podcast helpful and you want to support the show. There’s a few ways that you can do so. First, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts, and if you’re feeling extra awesome, you can also leave me a five star review. Thanks for being here, and I’ll see you next time.