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Herding breeds are special dogs. Highly intelligent, sensitive, and with a die hard work ethic, they aren’t designed for pet dog homes. What one might think of as reactivity in a herding breed, someone else might see natural behaviors we have bred them for. Why is it that herding breeds tend to display reactive behaviors more than other breed groups? And what can you do to support them more?

In this episode I bring in Liz Randall CPDT-KA to discuss:

• Why herding breeds are more prone to reactive behaviors in pet dog homes
• The predatory sequence in dogs and how that applies to herding
• Whether we should we use barking as a metric for thresholds in leash reactivity cases
• How you might be inadvertently reinforcing a herding breed’s reactive behaviors
• And so much more

About Liz:

Elizabeth, or Liz, Randall has lived and worked with animals since early childhood. Growing up in a dog- and horse-centric family, she was an avid, competitive equestrienne by age nine. Throughout high school and college years, she continued to dabble in a variety of equine endeavors, including multiple summer stints at a ranch in the Big Horn mountain range in Wyoming. She worked in the sports industry for ten years, following her love for the outdoors. In her mid-thirties, upon finding her hands full with a new rescue dog that operated “outside the box” in the behavior department, she simultaneously discovered clicker-training and the sport of dog agility. These two revelations quickly changed her career trajectory from sports marketing to living wholeheartedly in the animal training world.
Using the most current, positive reinforcement-based training methods, Liz has held her Certified Pet Dog Trainer credential (CPDT-KA) since 2011, and works regularly with both high level behavior modification and canine sport clientele, both locally in Southern California, and across the country.
Liz has competed in a variety of dog sports with all of her dogs, but focuses primarily on dog agility. She and her dogs have won and podiumed at a multitude of major national and regional events over the last decade. Liz works with clients in the San Diego, California area, at private facilities across the US, and online. She loves to teach her students the importance of learning theory, how to better observe their dogs, and technical training mechanics.

She also stays informed and educated on the ever-evolving practices of dog training, behavior modification, and behavior analysis. She has attended dozens of lectures and seminars of many of the pre-eminent leaders of the animal training industry. She is a graduate of Dr. Susan Friedman’s Living and Learning with Animals course, attended Ken Ramirez’s week-long Dive Deep; An Advanced Training Course, and traveled to Mexico to study street dogs with Sue Sternberg. Ongoing, continuing education is a critical component of Liz’s work, and she is a lifelong student and learner.

Her true love is being well off the beaten path out in nature with her dogs.

For in person clients: www.resilientdogs.com

Online agility teaching platform with Rachel Downs: www.topodogs.com 

Transcript

Jessica: [00:00:00] I am Jessica Wheatcraft, and this is Rethinking Reactivity, A podcast designed to educate, empower, and equip the modern handler of reactive dogs. Whether you have a reactive dog or you help people with their reactive dogs,

you’re in the right

place.

It is Black Friday, and not only do I have a great episode for you to listen to, I also wanted to do a quick announcement for the Black Friday sale that I have going on from now until December 5th. If you’ve listened to this podcast before, I know you’ve heard me talk about my leash reactivity mentorship for professionals, but since I don’t have another cohort starting until March 2026, I wanted to make sure you knew you can access the self-study course at any time, or sign up for the private mentorship. [00:01:00] Get $75 off the self-study version, or $250 off the private mentorship. Head to my website, www.jessicawheatcraft.com or check the show notes for the link. Onto the show.

When I first started working with dogs, it was the early two thousands, and at that time there was a big narrative around treating every dog breed the same. A common sentiment was “breed doesn’t matter it is all in how you raise them”. And I started noticing that this didn’t go over well with people who had extensive experience with specific breeds.

These were often breeders or people who have owned the same breed for decades. They insisted their dogs were indeed different, which is why they treated them as such. The truth is breed does matter. Genetics have a huge influence over a dog’s behavior, as does their early [00:02:00] socialization and the environment they live in.

Nowhere has this become more apparent to me than with herding breeds. Dogs like Border Collies, Australian Shepherds and Icelandic sheep dogs, for example, are often labeled as reactive. But are they truly reactive or are they simply displaying behaviors we as humans have bred them to do? I have been looking to unpack this topic for a while, and I’m so grateful that my friend and colleague, Liz Randall came on the show to do this with me.

Liz is the professional dog trainer and behavior consultant who has a wide range of experience from owning and operating a dog boarding facility, to helping dogs with behavioral challenges, to competing in agility -at a very high level I want to add -with her border collies. She gives us so many great insights on herding breeds and how they [00:03:00] differ from other dogs, especially pertaining to leash reactivity and I know what you’re gonna get a lot out of this episode. Let’s dive in.

Jessica: I am really excited to have you on here because you have such a unique wealth of knowledge that I think so many of my listeners are gonna find really insightful and really valuable.

So I’m like, I’m just very excited that you’re

Liz: here. Well, thank you. I, I was really honored that you invited me. I’m in very good company. So thank you for having me here. I’m excited to chat with you and Yeah, especially with you being across the globe. Now I’m excited to get to talk to you. I know.

Jessica: You have a lot of experience with herding breeds. I think as long as I’ve known you, you’ve always had a border collie, I wanna say, and multiple ones actually.

Um, if I’m trying to think, so you’ve always had herding breeds, and I think when we think of herding breeds and then reactivity, [00:04:00] they are one of the breed groups that I tend to see more reactivity in, or ones that, I guess depending on the environment that they live in, I tend to see more reactivity in.

Yeah. And I think that they’re really special dogs, and so that’s why I really wanted to do like a whole podcast episode on herding breeds and kind of some typical traits that they have, and we’ll dive into a bunch of different nuances.

But let’s start first. So you love herding breeds, and I’m wondering if you could share why, like what is it that is draws you to these dogs? Yeah. And I think one thing I was thinking about when I was kind of preparing for this too is there’s like the groupings that a KC creates, you know, that I think we kind of tend to use as our general umbrella and in the herding group are a lot of the shepherd type dogs, which I find interesting.

Liz: And I know that they are technically. Herding dogs from the beginning. But just to clarify, when I’m talking about herding dogs, I kind of tend to keep those shepherd [00:05:00] types, you know, the German shepherds and the Belgians and things like that, a little separate. They certainly have herding tendencies, but when I’m saying herding dogs, I’m thinking of the border Collies and the Aussies and the Shees and the corgis and those kind of more traditional herding breeds.

‘Cause the shepherds are their own, they have a whole different, again, there’s overlap there, but they have more guardian type tendencies. So I’m talking about, you know, the traditional, but, um, so. What draws me to them. I actually met, I probably, a lot of people don’t know, very few people know this.

I met my first border collies when I worked on a ranch in my late teens, early twenties, kind of towards the end of my college career. During summers I worked on a ranch in Wyoming and I met in person, you know, ’cause I’m from San Diego, so there’s not a ton of like border collies or in this general area if you’re just normal, everyday pet person life.

And I met those dogs on the ranch and I just, I fell in [00:06:00] love with those dogs. They were. So sweet. I think a lot of people that don’t live with Border Collies don’t really like most border collies really are sweet dogs. Yeah. They are so sweet. They just love people and a lot of ’em are really cuddly.

But then on the other side of that, they want to work. They wanna do a job. They are just looking for you to tell them to do anything. And so this like dichotomy of the sweetness and also the work ethic I think is what like really. Got me. So that’s where my obsession started. And I did actually at that time I did end up getting a border Collie Labrador mix.

It was a oops puppy that was in my family for a few years and she actually had pretty catastrophic separation anxiety. But that’s a story for another podcast. So we don’t have to go into that. But my first real quote unquote, real border qualities were when I started in agility, [00:07:00] had been in agility for a bit, and was full, you know, hook line and sinker into the agility world.

And I already was in love with the board call, I think. So it was kind of inevitable. And also they’re just really functional dogs, you know, like size wise. They’re very versatile, but I think it’s important that you are even already brought it up.

They’re very high needs. Right. And, you know, border collies, I think might of the herding group generally that we’re talking about, border coll is probably err on like the far end of the spectrum of high needs. And we could talk about some of the slightly less needs, but all of the dogs that we’re kind of categorizing as herding group are high needs.

And even Aussies, right? Like Aussies are super popular right now and they’re a little easier than border class, but they’re very high. They have a lot of needs to, so, it’s. It’s. Can be tough and also awesome, so

Jessica: Yes. I love that your first experience with them was seeing them on that ranch.

Mm-hmm. Because I think you really got to see them in their element of being able to not only live and work [00:08:00] on the same property, and that is really what those dogs were designed for. Right. And so then when we take those dogs and then we put them in a different kind of environment, then sometimes we tend to see behaviors that can make them harder to live with.

Or like you said, they’re really high needs and. There’s a difference between a dog who lives and works on a property that wakes up, goes outside, they’re not on leash, they do the thing that they’re programmed to do.

Liz: Mm-hmm,

Jessica: exactly. And then they get to spend the vast majority of the day outside. Yeah. It doesn’t mean that these dogs are working nonstop.

I guess that’s a little bit of a myth that they’re just constantly working. That’s not what they’re doing, but there’s a difference between that. And then a dog who lives in like a suburban home and maybe they’re getting out for walks, you know, every day, but it’s just different, you know, it’s like they aren’t able to work as they normally would.

[00:09:00] So. You don’t live on a ranch. Mm-hmm. So I’ve been to your house, uh, so you don’t live on a ranch, but you compete in agility. You do some really high level stuff. So obviously your dogs have jobs. I’m wondering if we could start with that. Like why do herding breeds struggle so much in pet dog homes?

Liz: They have, I guess I already said they have high needs. I think not just physically, right? We all say, oh, well, they need to go out and run. Yes, sure they do. They need that physical exercise. They have high intellectual needs, right? So they need training. They quote unquote, need a job. They also have high emotional needs.

And I don’t think a lot of people really understand that. They’re very emotional and they need a lot of emotional support from their people. And I think that when they get left at home for eight hours a day, again, even if they’re quote unquote getting the exercise or whatnot they need their people around and they need a lot of like emotional validation [00:10:00] uhhuh.

They’re needy dogs. And so I think that separation can be really hard for them. And then again, they are a full-time job. They really are. I am a professional dog trainer. I don’t just do agility with my dogs. I actually do, or try to do as much off leash, free time in nature with my dogs as I do agility, which sometimes the year is harder, easier than others.

But they need that and they need a lot, they just need a lot of your time and energy and it, it can be really challenging for a regular, normal person to meet those needs. It can be tough.

Jessica: Yeah. It really can. And I think sometimes people, maybe they meet like. A more watered down version of a border collie or

Liz: mm-hmm.

Something or an

Jessica: older dog maybe, or Right. Yeah. That like was able to kind of live that life and then they met that dog and then, it kind of gets it in their head that Okay. Right. That border call I met was so great, or that Aussie that I met was so [00:11:00] great. ’cause I have, I have met some of those dogs that are like, those really chill ones that like Right.

Just kind of stroll along following their human right. And it’s just like, dang, uh, yeah. You know, that looks like an easy dog. Um, right. And then like you said, they’re sweet, they seek people out.

So yeah I guess maybe sometimes people will just see that and then think, well I can do it. Or they think that they’re giving their dog enough stimulation and everything that they need when in reality it’s probably not cutting it mm-hmm. For those dogs and then Right.

Things start to spill out which is where we then tend to see things like leash reactivity with these dogs. And I know there’s some other common things out there as well, but what’s been your experience with, like your herding breeds? If they’re gonna be predisposed to having a behavior challenge, what is it gonna be?

Yeah,

Liz: I tend to find there’s kind of, I would say I kind of lumped it into three different categories. I don’t know how much you’ve talked about this on the podcast, but I’m really fascinated by modal action patterns. [00:12:00] So like those ingrained like genetically programmed patterns of behavior, right?

And so with the herding breeds they’re programmed to herd. And with that comes that that sequence that, we can get into predatory sequence and all that kind of stuff, but they never finish that predatory sequence. But they, eye, they stalk, they stalk LK to move the stock OCK, you know, to move the stock.

And then there’s the chase and, and all of this kind of stuff. So that’s motion. They’re programmed to create motion and they’re programmed to control motion, right?

Jessica: Yeah.

Liz: And so. A, the motion in the environment is triggering for a lot of these dogs, especially. And I think genetically it’s just, it’s programmed into them to respond to motion.

Um, and so they have a quick switch, a quick flip response to motion in the environment, and that can be problematic. [00:13:00] And then the other thing related to that is they often want to create motion to control what’s happening in the environment or stop. They either wanna create motion or stop motion, right?

So there’s that control aspect that they can struggle with, especially if they feel like things are not under control. And I think we can get into that quite a bit. But, um. So there’s a lot of behavior that they will manifest in order to create that, in order to control things that are happening or create that motion.

And then bundled in with all of that is they are quick to flip into a, I hate to say this, but they’re quick to flip into arousal or they’re quick to get frustrated and along with the frustration can come the arousal. Mm-hmm. And so all of that can get real messy, real quick, you know, and teasing those things apart can be challenging, especially if you’re not really familiar with, how a lot of these dogs are just programmed.

Jessica: Yeah. I love that you’re bringing these things up because I have not [00:14:00] talked about modal patterns on this podcast yet, and I also haven’t talked about the whole predatory sequence. Yeah. So that would be neat if we just. Talked about that a little bit more, because I know there’s gonna be listeners who this will be their first time hearing those terms and they don’t actually know what they are.

Yeah. Can you share more about the predatory sequence. Right.

Liz: So the predatory sequence is how things evolve from the time the dog, or I assume the animal sees prey in the environment and what their steps along the sequence and the sequence may or may not complete itself.

And some breeds, like herding breeds are actually designed to not complete the sequence. Right? Yeah. So I believe, and help me out, Jess if I’m wrong here, but mm-hmm. I believe the sequence is orient, eye stock chase, grab. Kill, [00:15:00] consume. I mean that, I think that covers the major. Maybe I missed something along the line there, but I think that covers the, the gist of it, right?

Jessica: Yeah, exactly. And I like how you also said that for certain breeds, we have selected dogs, right? To only display certain, um, they only go so far along the sequences. Exactly right. And like we could give Labradors for an example, right? So when people have Labradors and they were using them for hunting birds they didn’t necessarily want them to go swim out in the water and consume the bird, uh, right ’cause they wanted the dog to retrieve it. So they, they get sent out and they grab the bird and then they bring it back. But they’re not supposed to consume it. So these are certain things that are bred in that I think a lot of people don’t realize that’s why Labradors have such a strong retrieve, not all of them, right.

We all know that they’re mm-hmm. Um, dogs are individuals, but and as you said with border collies, they do a lot of the stalking part and so that’s why they’re so. In tune to movement, because that’s [00:16:00] also something that we really selected them for.

Yes. But you can share more about their herding patterns, because I know we’re not sending them to go bite the sheep.

Liz: Their sequence is supposed to, at least now, and it gets a little different between the different specific breeds with border coys.

Mm-hmm. That sequence is supposed to end at the chase. Right. Like, and again, are we talking cattle lines or sheep line? We can all, we could really go down the rabbit hole, but generally, they’re not supposed to put their mouth on the stock and they’re certainly not supposed to, grab bite, kill, consume like that. If you have a dog that a is hard biting stock, that dog is gonna get washed out and beyond that, game over. But the orient and the eye and the stock, all of those things, they actually are pressure. Pressure on, again, stock and stock. There’s pressure on the stock, on the livestock, I should say to get them to move.

One thing that a lot of people don’t know again a little bit more on the border collie side, maybe a little less on the Aussie side because they have different. [00:17:00] Functions as far as specific herding duties or types of herding that they do.

Border collies have a, they’re very pressure sensitive and they tend to want to kind of squirt out and away from the human, and they tend to wanna orient back towards the human. They want to outrun, they wanna do these big loopy things. One of my border clothes in particular, she’ll just, she’ll outrun my chickens.

And so these are just little, little things that are hardwired into these dogs that may manifest. And the average person is like, what is happening here? Right? Or Why is this happening? And a lot of these behaviors are hardwired and they did have a function and a purpose. And now in suburban, backyard or suburban walking around the neighborhood, these behaviors that are so hardwired have nowhere to go.

So your border collie may start eyeing and stalking, the neighbor’s little white, fluffy dog. And that. Doesn’t feel good probably for the little white, fluffy dog. Right. Or [00:18:00] the neighbor’s cat or, or whatever that ends up being.

Jessica: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I like how you bring that up because then it makes more sense why that would be a behavior that this type of dog would just be more likely to display. Right. So that’s one thing I, I wanna talk more about that and how that pertains to leash reactivity in a moment. Mm-hmm. But I just wanted to go back briefly to other types of herding breeds where, you know, we had mentioned that border collies we don’t want them to put their mouth on the sheep, but I know with cattle dogs they are more likely to, to use more pressure and to use their mouths.

And so it’s a little bit different, um, right. In terms of, again, what they have often been selected for, which is why they tend to be bolder than Yes. They’re far pushier, far more, they’re assertive dogs. Right. They are. I, I mean, God, I just, I love cattle dogs.

I think they’re so much fun. Again, with herding breeds. I mean, you mentioned how [00:19:00] Border Collie were very sweet and everything with people. There’s also herding breeds that where it can be more common for them to be more wary of people.

Yeah. Um, so I know that, you know, certain lines of Australian shepherds and cattle dogs can be cautious of new people. More wary, maybe even stranger directed aggression. Right. Um, can be found in them. So it kind of encompasses a whole variety of things. But I think when we’re talking about these types of dogs, I think we in general can say that they’re just more sensitive to movement in their environment.

Would you say that they have also been bred to like really take a lot of direction from their human that they are Right. They’re like waiting for to be told what to do. Yes. Like, hey, we’re supposed to do this together. Um, so that’s what we have also been breeding them for and yeah.

Yeah, they

Liz: do. They, they absolutely want direction from their people. They do not like to be left hanging. And I find that, and I even find this in some of my agility teams that I [00:20:00] coach. If the handler is not clear, if the handler is a little too soft, and I just mean as in a little like, oh, well what, what do you want?

You know, and the dog’s kinda like, I would really rather you step up and tell me what to do, but if you’re not gonna step up and tell me what to do, then I’m gonna take control of this situation. And depending on the specific dog and handler combination things can get real messy, you know, and maybe not in a, from a reactivity standpoint, but it’s interesting to see the dynamic.

But the vast majority of these dogs, whether it’s a border collie or a cattle dog or whatever, in between, they really, they want that direction. That is literally what they’re programmed to do. They’re programmed to work with us, take direction from us. They tend to take verbal direction quite well.

Assuming they know what those verbals mean, those verbal cues mean and obviously physical cues as well. But they listen and they want you to tell them [00:21:00] what to do.

Jessica: Yes. Yeah.

Liz: Yeah.

Jessica: So then let’s talk about how if we have a herding breed that is having some leash reactivity, how some approaches may not.

Really be best suited for them and how some of them might actually backfire. And I’ll give an example of, we were talking about earlier how it’s really common, you mentioned with specifically border collies how they want to make things move through the pressure of their bodies. Right.

And also by, by eyeing things, you know. Yeah. They, they are gonna like stare at the thing, like until it can somehow move. So we’re just gonna see more staring with these dogs out in the world.

Liz: Mm-hmm. And

Jessica: one of the things which I do, by the way, with many of my clients, not all, but depending on the dog, would be okay let’s start with something really easy.

When you’re out on a walk with your dog and your dog notices another dog, I want you to mark and feed for the noticing part. And [00:22:00] depending on the dog and mm-hmm. More likely if it happens to be a herding breed or a border collie, we might just be inadvertently reinforcing more staring. Which is something that I think the dog finds like intrinsically reinforcing if I was gonna like, I don’t know, kind of label it in some way.

Mm-hmm.

Liz: So

Jessica: might not be like my first go-to, if I saw a border Collie or something that was doing a lot of the staring, I might think, well I’m gonna step in and find something else to start with here. Because I think sometimes, especially if we give. Some of those instructions to our pet dog clients and we’re early on in our training plan, or they maybe read about it online somewhere.

Right. And think like that, right? ’cause I’m gonna try this with my dog. Um, sometimes it, it backfires ’cause we’re just reinforcing more behavior that we don’t want from that dog. So, curious what your thoughts are on that specifically. How so many of them tend to do so much of the stare?

Liz: Right. It’s funny I just [00:23:00] literally a few days ago had a lesson with a client who I’ve been working with for a while, and fortunately she is a veterinarian, so she’s a little bit, a lot, a bit more savvy than maybe the average bear with, with a challenging herding mix. But we were literally working through this in that.

And this is where it gets tough, right? The example you gave was good. Somebody’s just like reading stuff online and, and they’re trying to do, you know, the best they can and they’re just seeing the dog looking. Now there’s a difference between a dog. Calmly orienting to stimuli and new environment.

Jessica: Yeah.

Liz: And a dog in I-I-E-Y-E and stalk mode. Right. S-T-L-A-L-K. Um, because those are two different things, right? A dog can be casually orienting towards something and a dog can be eyeing something. Those are not the two same behaviors, right? Yes. And so, but it [00:24:00] takes a certain level of nuance to be able to identify that.

Mm-hmm. So we were actually working through that a little bit. With my client in that if he’s casually looking, we’re marking and rewarding. But when the eye, the EYE comes in, he starts lowering his head, his movement starts slowing, he gets locked onto the thing and he is going into lizard brain, right?

So we were literally working on uhoh. Is he in eye mode? If he’s in I mode, you’re gonna say, let’s go, boom. And you’re gonna like gently, kindly, physically break him off from that, and you’re gonna move the opposite direction. And then we’re gonna circle around and we’re gonna work again. Because if he gets locked in, then we’re in trouble.

We’re starting that, that pattern of behavior that is gonna get really hard to break out of. So, yeah. So I will do the look, but it’s quick, it’s highly reinforced and I do a lot of moving away. A lot of moving away, yeah. Um, so they [00:25:00] don’t get locked on.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. I’m really glad that you brought a, the nuance of that up, right. There’s difference between noticing and then there’s a difference between the eye. So I’m glad you brought that up, but I also appreciated that you add in a lot of movement after.

Mm-hmm. Um, after that reward, because I do very similar. If someone’s listening and they’re, they’re trying to do this with their dog I always encourage to not necessarily feed in place, especially if they’re kind of mm-hmm. Noticing something at first and maybe you’re gauging their threshold or maybe just kind of testing things out.

I always like to feed opposite or, yeah. Mark, move, feed opposite. You could also do something as simple as just like tossing the treat to the side. So the dog has to move exactly some degree and then the food is on the ground so it breaks more of the stair. Exactly. Rather than thinking, well, I’m feeding my dog for noticing, but I’m feeding them, while they’re still facing the other dog and I’m placing the food directly in their mouth.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, I don’t know that I, I’m trying to think I ever do any of that. Maybe if a dog’s super [00:26:00] fearful and they feel like they really just wanna watch another dog because they’re really concerned and for safety reasons, they feel like they wanna keep their eye on something.

Right. But that’s different, right? It’s different when it’s, um, not to say that border collies can’t be reactive ’cause they’re fearful, but I think there’s a difference between a dog that cautiously kind of wanna keep my eye on this thing over here. Right? So in that situation, I might feed as they’re noticing, but in general, I think it’s always a good idea to break that up if you’re gonna mark Yeah.

Reward a dog for noticing a dog, break it up by feeding on the ground, tossing or just orienting complete opposite direction and delivering the treat elsewhere. Right. Which is also why having a marker word yes, is helpful because yes, there’s some people who know how to use a marker word or a clicker, and then other people who don’t.

So, yeah, I suppose I’ll throw something in the show notes about where somebody could learn more if that phrase is something that they haven’t heard before. But when you have a word that’s conditioned that tells the dog that their food is gonna follow shortly afterwards, it’s much more effective to say the word and then you have time to feed because you don’t have to feed as a dog’s in [00:27:00] the position that they are in.

Liz: And I think just quickly for these, I mean for all dogs it matters. Yeah. But for these guys, speaking of kind of their needs, they need structure, they need predictability. They need to feel like somebody’s in control. And if you already have that preloaded marker cue, it makes things so much easier. The cattle dog I was working with last week, it was actually the first time I’d ever worked with them, but they had already done quite a bit of just basic training.

And so the dog had really clean, crystal clear marker cues, and so it just. Sped everything long and this dog was quite nervous and she was quite fearful, but we were able to arrange things in a way that we could give her enough space. We were in a busy public park. It was a little, a little dicey, but because she had that preexisting foundation of really understanding the marker cues, even though the parents had done no real reactivity training, it went quick.

It was really cool, and I was so grateful that they already had that on board. It [00:28:00] just made everything so much easier.

Jessica: Yeah. That makes sense. When dogs have that foundation of just any sort of, even just the communication within training when have this foundation in place, it does make a big difference.

Liz: Yeah.

Jessica: So, okay. This topic is kind of leading me into this other topic that I wanted to go over. So essentially what you and I are referring to, when a dog notices another dog and we happen to mark as that behavior happens, technically that’s called capturing.

But essentially we didn’t prompt the dog in some way, meaning we didn’t give the dog a verbal cue to do the thing. Like a good way to think of this as the dog happened to just offer the behavior or maybe they didn’t offer it because they didn’t even know that it was something that would get ’em a reward, but we just started to reinforce it.

So then the dog is beginning to make this connection between, when I do this unprompted or uncured I get. A reward for it. So for many [00:29:00] dogs, when they make that connection, they’re like, oh, well, okay, yeah, I’ll do this again. So that’s one way of teaching a dog to do something. And then you also mentioned if the dog got a little bit locked on that we’re verbally cuing the dog.

Right. So it’s, let’s go and using some more of our body positioning to help that dog really be able to move away and understand, oh, we’re actually changing directions right now. Mm-hmm. We’re not gonna stay right here. And this leads me into this bigger topic of like how we are helping. Herding dogs that are reactive in terms of like how we’re deciding to teach them what to do in those moments.

Because I tend to find, and this goes back to what you said, that they were bred to take direction from their humans. That if we focus too much on just capturing meaning, just mm-hmm. Let’s just wait till they do something that I like and I’m gonna mark and feed it and I’m gonna stand, you know, 10, 20 feet from my [00:30:00] dog and I’m gonna give them so much choice.

I have seen, and this is why I started changing my tune on this, is that they feel really lost. That the dogs they tend to be slower to improve. Meaning like you keep doing the same thing and you’re getting some improvement, but not really a whole lot. And I started seeing more anxious behaviors from these dogs.

Interesting. And so I always found that when we are taking more of a direct approach with them in terms of prompting them in some way, and this could be a behavior that we’ve already taught them before, right?

So let’s say at home we’re building these foundation behaviors. And for example, like the Let’s go, that’s something that you taught your client before you had them in this situation with another dog. Mm-hmm. So the dog knew what this cue meant. It meant let’s go means the human verbally cues and we changed directions and I get my reward over here.

So these are behaviors that have been taught, but we’re giving information to the dog we’re cuing them, we’re prompting them in [00:31:00] some way. And then we’re also doing stuff with our bodies where we’re being more obvious through our hand motions or how we’re positioning ourselves in relation to the dog.

That is also different compared to somebody that has their dog on a long line and they’re 20 feet away. Mm-hmm. And they, that just looks completely different from the dog’s perspective. Right. Um, and it’s not to say that either one of those approaches wouldn’t work for an individual dog. Right. But I think we also need to look at perhaps a, a preference that a dog might have for a particular learning style or the way that they get guided by their human.

I do find that there are preferences to that. Mm-hmm. That’s what I wanted to talk more about with you. Is that something that you have also seen considering that you have so much experience with herding breeds?

Liz: Yeah. I mean, I think they’re [00:32:00] all individuals, but I tend to find, I think I mentioned this before, they want structure.

They don’t like to be left hanging. And patterns, like patterns for these dogs can be really helpful. Yeah. Um, that predictability factor having a good foundation of even just basic behaviors. Mm-hmm. Like my go-tos are like sit, hand, touch even if that’s all you have, but things that are on cue that the dog can perform and bringing those structured behaviors.

That have a deep, deep reinforcement history. That’s super important, right? Yeah. Those structured behaviors that already have an existing deep reinforcement history and they’re kind of robust. You can take those behaviors into slightly more challenging, to more challenging environments and help the dog work through these things.

Making sure again, that the dog is never questioning what to do, I think [00:33:00] is ah, you know, and not that, not that I don’t use capturing or shaping in these situations. ’cause I do, I, I actually still to this day, I still lean heavily on look at that, but it’s not, it’s not a, what am I trying to say?

It’s not the same every, every dog, every en environment. Right? It’s um. Making sure that we’re using, we’re doing, look at that, but we have tons of distance from the trigger. We have the availability to, abandon ship and get into a car. We have lots of existing behaviors, hopefully on board that we can use, so I think the biggest thing is don’t, like you said, I, I can’t tell you the last time I used a long line and just kind of wandered around.

Because again, and not that there’s anything wrong with that, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I tend to find it, one thing I wanted to say about these dogs in general they move fast and they react fast. And if the dog is [00:34:00] 25 feet away from you on a long line, there’s like nothing you can do about that, right?

And so when you have dogs that move and think. And react so quickly. You have to kind of be there and be on top of it to help them and ideally, you know, and we can never fully control the environment, but ideally we are being proactive, not reactive. Right. And we’re helping the dog to practice. The quote unquote right behaviors in these more challenging environments.

Yeah. Am I answering your question?

Jessica: Yeah. And you know, I think you really summed it up when you said that we shouldn’t leave them guessing as to what it is that they’re doing or what we want from them, right. Or what we’re asking from them. And I think that if you have this foundation and your dog is maybe used to doing things like quick notices of other dogs, I think that’s different when you have this history of preparation in terms of the dog having done this behavior at easier levels and, and you developed all of that consistency with the handler and stuff [00:35:00] as well.

I mean, of course all of that adds up and makes a difference. So of course that’s part of it. I think that really sums it up because I think that sometimes. What I have seen with certain approaches that people will take, that it just becomes like just mark anything that isn’t reacting.

Mm-hmm. And I don’t know that that is really informative to the dog as Yeah. Compared to. Well, you notice the dog and what if I just called you away and boom, right answer, like mm-hmm. For some dogs, I think they feel relief with that. Oh yeah. Oh, okay. I didn’t have to come up with this on my own or, right.

You know, have to like figure out like, what, what are we gonna do here? How are we gonna handle this thing? Um, right. I think that there’s validity with certain dogs, um, and certain breed groups that some of them are just more likely to respond more favorably to if they have this really nice working relationship with their handler, that when they’re feeling a little unsure if that handler guides in and tells them, Hey, we’re gonna do this and [00:36:00] that rather than leaving it to the

Liz: dog. And to that point too quickly, kind of what I was saying in the very beginning of when we were started talking that. Emotional support is big for these guys. Right. And I think if you’re just kinda like sitting there mute, you know, 25 feet away, on the end of the long line, they’re gonna be like, ah, so they need a little bit more connection and emotional support from the human half as opposed to like maybe a Pyrenees or a spit breed or, you know, something like that.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Got I, I’m fine. Thank you. Right? Yeah,

Jessica: exactly. Exactly. Can you please pipe down back there? Right. Overwhelming. Um, yeah, that makes, yeah, that makes a lot of sense that I’m really glad that you brought that up because there is that emotional component, right, of like that reassuring or, Hey, let’s do this.

Mm-hmm. Um, or come on, move along. We’re doing this over here. You know, I think that does really impact dog. I mean, it impacts

Liz: any dog, but, um Right. Which can also backfire too, right? Because if we’re right there on top of [00:37:00] going, it’s okay, it’s okay, it’s okay.

You know, that’s obviously not gonna help either. So it’s that I’m here and I, I, I talk to my clients about this a lot and I always feel a little bit woo, but they just need to know you have their back, right? Yeah. You’ve got it handled, you’ve got it under control. You’re here to support them. You’re hopefully calm and grounded and that’s gonna help the dog.

And again, especially for these really sensitive dogs, because they are sensitive, they need that, they need to feel that you’re emotionally supporting them and that you have, everything’s under control. Whether or not it actually is beside the point. Right. Like they need to feel that or you need to have their back or they need to feel like you have their back.

Jessica: Yeah, I like that a lot. That does make sense. And I’m glad that you brought up what we are saying to the dog because yes, I’m in agreement with that. There’s a difference between reassuring the dog that hey, we’re good or I’m in control. And then a little bit of like the really fast paced hyper yeah.

And I think that’s [00:38:00] something that, I dunno. There’s enough good information out there about what people should be saying to their dog, because the human is nervous too. Right. That’s why they start talking faster, because they’re like mm-hmm. Um, and they’re like hoping that somehow this is gonna like quiet the whole situation.

Yeah. Um, so, you know, they start talking that way, and so. Some of the things that I will tell my clients is like, when they feel the need to start doing that, right? Where they have this faster pace where they’re talking like that to their dogs that a lot of times when they see something that’s concerning to describe it.

Hey, just tell your dog, oh, look at that golden retriever over there. I know it’s barking like a maniac. Oh my gosh, look at that thing. That’s kind of unusual, huh? Okay, come on, we’re gonna go over this way. And I think the tone of your voice matters too.

Especially if you’re like, oh my gosh, what is this crazy thing over here? I think when dogs hear that, they’re kind of like, well, they don’t sound [00:39:00] like they’re real concerned about that, even though everybody might be concerned about it. I think if you can kind of fake your tone of voice and do the description of what it is, um, I think that it kinda has helped my clients have a better idea of like, what do I say to my dog rather than you saying, good dog.

Good dog. Okay, boy, good boy. And that’s smart. So yeah. I mean, not to say that you shouldn’t praise your dog, but I think dogs know I know exactly what you’re talking about. Yeah. We understand the difference between these types of phrases and how we talk to them. That’s super smart.

Liz: I love that.

Jessica: Okay.

I wanna talk about herding breeds and how they like to bark. Especially when when they’re excited or if they’re frustrated or a little over aroused, because this also ties into my experience with them with my leash reactivity cases. And I think the thing that I have come away with, and this is my opinion, so I’m curious what [00:40:00] yours is, but if we use barking or not barking as a measurement to tell us whether that dog is quote unquote under or over threshold, which again, thresholds I’ve talked about many times on this podcast, but there’s many different kinds of thresholds.

But let’s just say like the threshold that’s more optimal for learning is what, we’ll, what I’ll throw in there that. I tend to find that a lot of herding breeds will bark, but they’re like perfectly willing to work. I mean does mm-hmm. What they’re bred for. I think when I was, earlier in my career, I used to think, oh, I heard it vocalized so barking.

Is that, yeah. So this must mean now we gotta back it up we gotta add more distance or we gotta, gotta stop what we’re doing. So there’s one dog that really changed my perspective on this, where I was like, I’m looking at the dog’s body language there’s really not a whole lot that I’m seeing here that’s telling me that the dog is concerned. I think it just talks a lot. And it did. It talked when it was happy, it talked when it was [00:41:00] concerned. So I said, we’re just gonna pretend that we’re not hearing this right now and we’re just gonna keep working.

And it doesn’t mean that this is ideal, right? It doesn’t mean like I’m striving for this, but if I was going to use the dog being quiet as the point that tells me, okay, I’m on the right track. Exactly. I would’ve never gotten anywhere with this dog. I would’ve been 20 lessons in and, and barely ent. And so, right.

I was like, Nope, we’re just moving on. Right. So that, I really changed my perception on that, and I have since kind of continued that with a lot of herding breeds and also shepherds. Same thing I found with them. They just vocalize. And, and also like the doodles, more like the little golden doodles I will say.

They also vocalize a lot, but they’re not super stressed Right. Or unable to learn in that moment. And so a lot of times I just keep working ’em through and then they calm right down and so forth. So I’m just curious what your thoughts are on that.

Liz: Oh, I totally agree with you.

There is such a range. It’s kinda like we were talking a little bit earlier about the difference between a dog noticing or [00:42:00] orienting and like that eye, right? Yeah. Barking is similar in that there is such a range. There is such a range, and one dog can have a massive range of. What that barking means.

And typically those barks don’t look the same. Right. I’m, I have multiple clients in mind right now. Shelties Aussies Icees I had someone contact me recently. We have a adolescent icy and he barks all the time and it’s a real problem. And I’m like, oh boy. You know, like this is kind of what you signed up for.

But there was certainly reactivity going on, but again, the dog just barks. He just barks. That’s what he does. And I was literally just having this conversation yesterday with one of my clients who’s a sport and behavior client. And she has a Sheltie and the dog is reactive, but he’s also just a barky dog.

I think kind of exactly what you were saying earlier in [00:43:00] her. Trajectory of training this dog. She was told that all barking is bad. Wow. But it’s a Sheltie and when she very first started working with me, she would apologize to me all the time. I’m sorry.

He is barking. I’m like, he’s fine. If we get on him about this when he’s really, he’s just barking to bark. I say that they bark, some of them, they just bark to bark and it just, that’s just what they do. Right. I’m not gonna get on his case about that. Right. Because that’s gonna dig us a very, very deep hole.

Now if he’s actively eyeing, lunging, barking in a different pitch, like that’s a very different story. We’re gonna manage that or we’re gonna deal with that. Right. But I think, again, this is where it gets sticky, is the nuance of him trotting to the start line barking or him eyeing, lunging, barking.

Right. Yeah. We have to learn to see the difference between those behaviors. All barks are not equal. Right.

Jessica: I love that. Okay. Now I was gonna say maybe that’ll be the name of our episode, although I think uh, [00:44:00] we’ll see. Alright. But I love it. So yes, and I think that maybe one of the more obvious nuances that people might find helpful would be if the dog is orienting and fixating in a certain direction and barking Yes.

At something repeatedly compared to a lot of these dogs. They’re barking into the sky. Yes. Like, like literally all over the place. I’m glad that you mentioned the dog barking at the start line. Like people should just go on YouTube and look at agility videos. If somebody’s never seen this, how many dogs in, they gotta run through the whole course.

Barking. Barking. Yes. And they’re. Yes. And they are doing really high level stuff, you know? Yeah. So they’re not like deeply upset.

 One of my dogs screams when he’s running, he screams, I could not get that out of him if I tried. And he’s fine. He’s in arousal, but he is fine.

Jessica: Exactly. Exactly.

So I think that’s one of the things that, I’m so glad we had a chance to talk about this [00:45:00] because I tend to find that people will hold barking to, I don’t know, some sort of Yeah. Like standard. It’s black and white.

Liz: Like it’s, it’s bad. Barking is bad and it’s, it’s missing a lot of nuance there.

Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think it’s also helpful to look at the dog as an individual because if the dog is super quiet at home, never really vocalizes, right? And then elsewhere you’re noticing a lot of vocalization, then we might say like, well that’s, interesting. We should definitely take note of that because they’re vocalizing a lot more in this environment compared to home.

But most of these dogs that like bark to bark, they’re doing it at home too. Yes. And maybe not all day, but they’re doing it because they want something or because they’re excited because their human just came home and Right. You know, so it’s, it’s coming out elsewhere as well.

And that’s how you can usually tell like, oh, well my dog just vocalizes more, compared to maybe another dog. So it’s, and the point

Liz: you made too about it, and I think this is. Huge. [00:46:00] Are they oriented, fixated, barking, clearly at something? Or are they trotting around with their head up in the air?

Just, like those are two very different pictures. They’re both barking, but the pictures are exponentially different. I think that’s a really good articulation of that.

Jessica: Yeah. So I’m curious with herding breeds, because I think one of the things that I don’t see a lot of in them is dog aggression, like real serious dog aggression.

I actually tend to find that a lot of ’em are maybe more towards like a neutral side, but certainly interested in other dogs or are more sociable. And I’m wondering if we could talk a little bit about that because I do think that does lead into, when we think about, okay, the dog’s reactive on leash, everybody thinks, okay, the dog’s reactive, so therefore they’re deeply uncomfortable with what they’re seeing and they don’t wanna be anywhere near that thing. And that might not be the case. It could be arousal, it could be [00:47:00] frustration, it could be other things or because the dog was moving suddenly.

And then, you know, the herding breed is like, oh my gosh and responding to that. So I’m wondering your experience, and we’ll probably maybe stick more with border collies. I know Aussies and cattle dogs can sometimes be maybe not as social, depending on the line with other dogs.

And I’m just curious what your experience has been in that regard.

Liz: I feel fairly confident in saying most herding dogs that I interact with are relatively neutral around other dogs? Yeah, I would say they don’t care, like assuming all other things are equal and they’re a relatively stable dog.

They kind of don’t care. They’re more interested in what their humans are doing. They certainly are fine with other dogs in their. Household or what have you, or, or dogs that they see on a regular basis. And some of them are more social, but I don’t think of them as like, say retrievers or [00:48:00] dogs that tend to be more seeking that social contact from other dogs.

Mm-hmm. And I did own a dog daycare for about eight years. And I would say the herding breeds. Generally didn’t do that well after about 12 to 15 months you know, they tend to be more social when they’re younger and they tap out pretty early and then they’re herding instincts and other kind of natural instincts kick in and they get really freaked out and they’re, they just like, this whole thing is out of control and they just don’t like it.

And, you know, the doodles and the labs are running around body slamming each other and the herding dogs are like, this is not okay. So, I tend to find I would put ’em right smack in the middle of the spectrum. Mostly they don’t care. And for me, I’ll be honest with you, that’s probably another reason why I love them.

Yeah. Because they’re really good assuming, you know, they’re having their needs met and they have training on board and, they tend to just be [00:49:00] able to coexist. And I love that. That’s what I want. I want dogs that are happy to coexist around other dogs, but they don’t need to go see everybody or get in everybody else’s business.

Jessica: Yeah. That’s been my experience as well with that. And I think that also makes a little bit more sense then with some of my clients who’ve had these dogs where let’s say the dog’s out on leash and sees a strange dog on a walk and it goes totally nuts.

But then let’s say they have a, like a family or a friend or somebody that’s gonna come stay for the weekend and they’re bringing their dog, and then the dog just comes in the house, or they just have this intro between like a baby gate or something, and then the dog doesn’t seem to have really much of a reaction to the dog mm-hmm.

When it’s actually up close. Mm-hmm. Um, not saying, that I’m recommending, oh, just throw ’em together but I have seen for dogs that in a different context and when they get access to another dog very quickly whether it’s through a gate or elsewhere, they don’t respond that way at all. Yeah. And so I always found that really interesting and I feel like I have seen that a little bit more with some of these herding [00:50:00] breeds.

Liz: Yeah. Generally they’re pretty good at coexisting.

 Is there anything else about herding breeds that we didn’t cover as it pertains to leash reactivity or life and pet dog homes that you think is important?

Liz: I do think one thing we have not touched on at all, and I don’t wanna go down a rabbit hole, but I think it’s worth mentioning Uhhuh.

Um, it’s just guarding. I think guarding is there more than people think it is. Whether it’s guarding their person or guarding their space I think that’s something I see a decent amount of, and a lot of times I feel like the guarding can kind of come from insecurity or lack of direction from the human.

Again, it’s kind of that control function happening. Yeah. Just a consideration to kind of keep in mind there.

Jessica: You know, that does make sense. Especially since they’re so bonded to their humans. Right. And they have such a, like what you said, like such high needs in terms of the time spent with their human and that emotional aspect as well.

Liz: I [00:51:00] tend to find that the guarding comes out of insecurity when they’re put in positions of insecurity. When we’re talking about guarding from humans or dogs, the food and toys, I mean, that’s insecurity too, but slightly different lenses there.

But yeah, when they’re unsure and a lot of these dogs are very sensitive that’s when it kind of manifests. I think. So anyway I don’t wanna necessarily go into that too much, but I think it’s a consideration if you’re a professional and you’re trying to evaluate what’s going on here, look at it from, the guarding lenses.

There’s something maybe consistent that we’re seeing that is consistent with resource guarding behavior, and I think it’s more common than people think. Yeah.

Jessica: Soon as you said that, I was thinking back through some of my cases, I’m like, oh, you know what? You’re right. Mm-hmm. I’ve seen a lot of guarding.

Yeah. With dogs, I think a little more so with cattle dogs for some reason. Mm-hmm. And I don’t know if that was just because of the ones that I worked with and they just happened to find me. But, um, yeah, cattle dogs are definitely on the guarder end of the [00:52:00] spectrum. Aussies too. Yeah, they’re too, um, I’ve seen a lot of guarding with Aussies.

Liz: Actually, one of the scariest human directed aggression cases I saw was an Aussie guarding. It’s. Mom from its dad and it was bad. Mm. It was bad. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. I’ve seen that too. I mean, not the degree, what you’re describing in terms of just the, uh, yeah. Stranger directed aggression, difficulty with guests coming in, you know?

Yes. All that sort of stuff. I tend to see that if

Liz: more

Jessica: so with Aussies than I do like a border collie or a Sheltie, you know, I don’t tend to see that with and she’s just gonna yell a whole lot of it. Yeah.

As we wrap up, I’ll just share a little bit about a Sheltie that I see on my walks here, because I think some of the way that this person handles his, Shetlie’s quote reactivity, which I’m putting in quotes, because I don’t think he would describe his dog as being reactive at all.

Right. You know, I’m always so fascinated by seeing just differences in dogs anywhere I go. But I think specifically German people tend to take a much [00:53:00] more neutral response to their dog if they happen to show interest in another dog or if they, you know, react in some way. I know if I went back to San Diego and saw a dog on a walk and it started to react, I guarantee that human would be doing something immediately and maybe not even in a good way.

Right, right, right. They’re gonna see a lot of like, they’re trying to correct the dog, they’re jerking back on the leash. They’re, immediately wanna stop this behavior as soon as it happens. Or they’re

Liz: letting the dog do it and they’re like, yelling at you and apologizing while the time.

Jessica: Yeah. Or that. And so what I thought was interesting, I mean, there’s certainly not nearly as much reactivity here in Germany at all. It’s just really not. But anyways, the whole story of the Sheltie. Scout is in love with this little dog, her name’s Lila. She’s a cute little thing. She isn’t reactive to dogs. In fact, she waits for the other dogs to approach and she kind of pounces and they do this cute little dance and they’re having all this like, cutesy thing, but bikes, whole nother story.

And these trails that we go on, it’s multi-use. So you’ve got [00:54:00] bikes and you’ve got dog walkers and everything. The moment that shelter sees a bike game over. Yes. Right? So she’s just the high-pitch barking, often spinning in circles. Yeah. And I thought it was so fascinating. Her owner is an older gentleman and he just, it’s just like doesn her doesn’t do anything.

He just totally ignores it. Mm-hmm. She stops after. Oh, I don’t know, seconds. It’s really not like she carries on ’cause she’s just kind of like a bike. And then like alerts to it and then she’s over and then she goes back to playing whatever she’s doing. It’s like she’s kind of going back to that vocalization of what we were talking about.

Yeah. Not really deeply stressed by that. She’s just vocalizing because she’s seeing this bike and, you know, the human doesn’t really think there’s anything he needs to do about it and they just live this happy life together. Yeah. I I often see them and I think, gosh, I wonder if that was one of my clients in the US who immediately felt like, well, I need to fix this right now.

Um, you know, I can’t have my dog be doing this.

I think there’s just something to be said of how the person responds in that moment. Because I think [00:55:00] sometimes if we immediately jump on it or do whatever, we’re highlighting it more to the dog. Right. Especially when it comes to like cars and other things. Our own response is really highlighting this event to the dog. It may be reinforcing the event, right? Yeah, exactly. Because you weren’t doing anything with your dog and now you are definitely doing something with your dog.

Right. Um, as soon as they start responding to this thing on wheels. Right. I just think it’s interesting, so interesting to see cultural differences from here in the US with dogs, but then also how the people here if their dog lets out a few barks, they just, they don’t do anything.

They just move on with their life. And yeah. And I think there’s something to be said about that. I think that’s something that people could take home if their dog lets out a couple little barks. Like maybe not stop everything that you’re doing. Um, maybe just and, sorry, go ahead.

Finish your second. Maybe just continue doing whatever you’re doing as long as it’s not a safety issue of course. But I think American dog owners are very sensitive to their dog barking

Liz: and I [00:56:00] think acknowledging it’s a Sheltie, right? Yeah. I got a Sheltie, or I got an icy, they’re going to bark, right?

It came in the box. You ordered the box showed up on your doorstep. This was in the box, and you can work to. Get rid of those behaviors, but you’re just kind of fighting an uphill battle. Right? So it’s like choosing those battles, acknowledging who your dog is. You know, I quickly, hopefully this helps wrap it up.

My male border collie. He has heavy eye now he is the sweetest, most marshmallowy. Yes he is. Teddy bear of a dog you’ve ever met. Mm-hmm. But he’s got a lot of eye and it was game on from eight weeks old and the first like nine months of having him, I worked so hard on that. I worked so hard on being able to break him off and keep his attention.

[00:57:00] At about nine, 10 months I was like. I’m a pretty good trainer and I am not making a lot of headway with this. And I just was like this, he’s a border collie. This is who he is. There’s no fallout from the eye, right? It’s not like he’s eyeing and then stalking and then chasing and grabbing, like, no, no, no.

It’s literally just the eye. And I was like, this is how he’s programmed. And I can fight it and fight it, or I can just be like, you know what? There’s no negative ramifications really, from him doing this behavior. I’m just gonna let him do it. And I let him do it. And I’m sure that makes some people’s skin crawl, but that’s who he is.

And it’s fine. It’s fine. It doesn’t hurt him. It doesn’t hurt anybody else. Just let it go. You know, it’s like we have these expectations of how our dogs are supposed to act. And we get upset when the behavior kind of creeps outside of falls outside, drips outside of that box, right?

Mm-hmm. And what is really worth [00:58:00] spending our time and attention on? And I do wanna touch on this quickly because I think this is really important, and we touched on the beginning. Those behaviors that you’re finding challenging, they’re always probably gonna be there in some capacity, right?

Like, especially these genetically programmed behaviors. But if these dogs are getting their needs met, if they are getting the physical exercise, if they’re getting the training, if they’re getting the emotional support they’re getting out and having real dog time and decompression time and all that good stuff, those behaviors are gonna be more tolerable for everybody.

Right. If nothing else with these, with all dogs, right? But these dogs, this group of dogs, they need they must have their needs bet. And for anybody that hasn’t listened to the Kim Brophy episode with Jessica, it’s really, really good and you should listen to it. But they have to have their needs met in order to live successful lives and be successful in our homes with us.

You know, so, and they’re a lot, it’s a lot. It’s a lot to ask.

Jessica: It is. No, I love that you brought that up and I think that’s like the [00:59:00] perfect note to end on. Because without that, without meeting those needs, that these dogs have things can either feel more tolerable or far less tolerable.

Right. And so making sure that you’re focusing on those pieces first before you’re trying to change. Yes. Always your behavior, always. Um, because you’ll just be going in circles if you’re trying to change your behavior, but then you are not addressing everything else.

Liz: I tell people that all the time.

Um, you know, especially my pet clients. I say if you want me to help you, I could train this dog to do a back flip or something, but that does us no good. If the dog is lacking physical, mental, emotional stimulation that he needs, they need to be in a good head space before the training really is gonna matter.

Right.

Jessica: Exactly. Exactly. Uh, I loved this conversation. I’m so glad that we had the opportunity to talk about all these things. I’ve been like bottling these things inside and [01:00:00] like, God, we can talk to Liz about all these things about herding breeds. I love it. Yeah, I love it. It was so much fun. Yeah. Loved it.

Loved it. So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having

Liz: me. I’m so excited for your podcast. It’s amazing. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it.

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